Dr. Tony Evans is the founder and senior pastor of Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship in Dallas, founder and president of The Urban Alternative and author of over 100 books, booklets and Bible studies. The first African American to earn a doctorate of theology from Dallas Theological Seminary, he has been named one of the 12 Most Effective Preachers in the English-Speaking World by Baylor University. Dr. Evans holds the honor of writing and publishing the first full-Bible commentary and study Bible by an African American. His radio broadcast, The Alternative with Dr. Tony Evans, can be heard on over 1,400 radio outlets daily and in more than 130 countries. Dr. Evans’ sermons are also streamed and downloaded over 20,000,000 times annually.

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so that

this is this is the couch where we have

sat for our entire lives not always on

this couch but

but this is the proverbial couch we’ve

sat our whole lives in space that’s the

spirit yes

this is the spot where we have been able

to sit down with you

and and hear just wisdom wisdom which

we’re grateful for

we’re grateful that we’ve had this this

space to hear from our father our whole

lives but now

we have friends in here with us and uh i

i want to know just just how you’re

feeling in general

like you know tell me how you’re feeling

dad i always ask you on a scale of one

to ten how are you today

how am i today let’s see uh we’ve been

doing a lot today

so it’s going downhill fast but uh

but no we’re doing okay overall overall

it’s a lot going on

uh in in our world which means there’s a

lot going on in the ministry because you

got to

address people’s needs hurts desires

frustrations

irritations uh and concerns

in a way that touches them but also

helps them to make sense of what they’re

seeing all around us

you know i’m doing interviews you’re

doing interviews because people are

just trying to figure out this whole

chaos thing with the

with the racial issue not just the the

sickness stuff but the

the racial tension that we’re having

right now and you lived through that

so um what were some of the things that

you’re seeing now that kind of remind

you of what you actually live through

because people don’t really have a

perspective of it really being real

well in april 1968 of course

martin luther king was was killed and

that led to riots

and that included where i was born and

raised baltimore maryland

and i remember seeing the guard going up

and down the street as

uh right down the street from from our

home the home of

your grandparents uh was a lot of the

where the riding took place i can

picture now looking out my window and

seeing um

seeing people being told that the

quarantine basically

as we would say at the day quarantined

everybody was ordered

in their home so they could just have to

deal with people who are disobeying the

law

there’s a lot of fear mixed with anger

mixed with destruction mixed with

frustration

that here progress was being sought for

african americans that got interrupted

by

such an evil event and so there was a

confluence

of of things taking place but for a lot

of us

because i was raised in such a strong

christian environment

we had to try to learn how to mix

what we were seeing from a christian

perspective how would

how would christ look at

what was taking place and why it was

taking place

because i remember growing up with my

dad your granddad

he was showing me restaurants we

couldn’t go into because i was black and

segregation and and some of the ways

churches that would not

uh allow blacks in them like saying

don’t go there don’t go there

he was educating me which was enough of

a warning but it wasn’t

it was an an educational way

this is how it is it doesn’t please the

lord the lord’s got to take care of it

you know

and at the same time i remember when i

found out

i was over a friend’s house when the

news interrupted and said martin luther

king had been

assassinated and how it like the world

stopped

it’s like the world stopped because of

course

he was leading a movement and that

movement had engulfed the engulfed us

all

because of the hope that was generated

by the movement

uh the hope of a of a new environment of

a new america

of a new inclusion of desegregation of

of opportunity of uh and it was done in

a peaceful way by and large

so when you kill martin luther king and

he’s pushing for peace

well now there is no peace because the

peacemaker

had been uh had been assassinated so it

was a lot of confusion and trying to

make sense of it

trying to trying to keep your christian

witness and not ignore the reality

of what you were seeing and and i guess

i was helped a lot of that because

a lot of that movement was being led by

the church so there was a constant

pulling back to a faith narrative

even though it now had to be applied in

a very different kind of environment

so what you said a lot of the movement

was by the church

and so yeah martin luther king getting

killed and everybody you know obviously

he did try to do it in a peaceful way

and now there’s unrest there’s no peace

you know in the past there’s been

peaceful protest and like martin luther

king said

that rioting is the messaging of the

unheard in other words there’s such a

frustration

so the difference now maybe the church

isn’t leading or needs to be leading

the way that it was leading to show how

it really should be done

i mean what would you say as a pastor

um and as a father with families how can

we really lead now

so that it’s actually something that

gets done the right way

can i have something before you answer

that yeah like i want to

it’ll go into his question but it kind

of precedes it is how do you feel

now seeing stuff that reminds you of

50 years ago that that looks in a lot of

ways

like how does that feel have you been

there and here

it feels like we’ve come a long way

we’ve come a long way but we still have

a long way to go

um it shows that

you know because with the loss of martin

luther king he was reflective of great

progress

laws were changed voting rights and

opportunities were established

uh desegregation uh was taking place so

now

you could you could go to schools you

couldn’t go to

live in neighborhoods you could live

live in

my concern now is that

there is a complacency that’s set in

and the progress didn’t continue so that

now we find ourselves going backwards on

both sides of the fence

i don’t think um enough white christians

understand the uh uh the

the failure to deal with some of the

structures that still have gone

unaddressed

you know and that’s coming out by

concern about certain kind of policing

certain kinds of opportunities that are

still denied

equality of things like healthcare among

among african americans making it so

more susceptible

but at the same time there is a heavy

responsibility on african americans to

reach back one of the things i hope

that you do because of the benefits that

accrued to me

that then went to you was one establish

strong families

because much stronger back then was the

family the african-american family

and even though it was in a segregated

environment two parent families were the

norm

the father was at home by and large

and there was an emphasis on the

strength of the family

even in the midst of segregation not

only was that the case

but you had a community that reinforced

the family values

because the church was so influential so

they would pass down these values to

their

to their kids well with with media now

with the breakdown of the family you

don’t have the same transfer

that’s why family is so important and we

emphasize family so much

so with your family your kids your lives

make sure you’re investing in your

children

a god-centered value system but also

make them aware of their history and

their heritage

so they can appreciate where they’ve

come from they can appreciate what they

have

and they can not only be beneficiaries

of of all that god has given

but they can be servants to others so

that others get

what they may not have because you’ve

gotten what god has allowed you to get

that’s powerful i mean just thinking

about me transferring to my kids i just

realized

i don’t have kids yeah that’s okay you

have a lot of kids

they’re called nieces and nephews

there’s a whole lot of them but i just

you know as i remember when i started

driving

and you sitting me down and saying okay

so

if you get pulled over this is what you

need to do at the time

i didn’t realize that you were doing

that as a black man to a black man

i thought all parents you know put their

sit their kids down and say

make them do the whole okay dad i got it

you know

just going through that process as i got

older i realized oh that’s something

black families do

i didn’t realize you know that all

families didn’t do that when i talked to

my white brothers and sisters they’re

shocked

they’re like what are you kidding me so

now i’m having to get ready to have

those conversations with my sons

and my daughters but at a space where

you know

they’re actually you know coming into a

time where

they see it okay i didn’t see it growing

up i didn’t know why you were telling me

that

but these camera phones have made it to

where they’re already kind of afraid

you know as they get ready to go into

the world you know so how do i

how do i parent from that perspective

of not putting fear into them because

they already got enough that they’re

seeing

but really just getting them ready for

the way the world is

in the way they should operate in the

world well my father had a twofold

relationship

to me i was his son but i was also

a black man growing up in segregated

baltimore

and and i know what it is to be pulled

over

simply because i was told by the

policeman you’re in the wrong

neighborhood

why are you here and for no other reason

than that and that happened more than

once

and i know that that’s the kind of world

we are we are

living in now that’s not reflective of

all

all all policemen but it could happen

and i wanted you to be prepared as my

son because i don’t want anything

happened to my son

but also the high possibility

that it could happen to you because

you’re a black son

and the reality is that sometimes an

officer can be angry

sometimes they can be afraid you have to

be wise

because it’s always better

to live another day to be able to tell

your story

than to be in a situation that goes off

and you get hurt so i wanted to make

sure you went overboard

because when a policeman pulls you over

he has a number of things going forward

one

he has the suit he’s in blue so he is a

legitimate legal authority

he has a badge okay with that suit that

that reinforces that

he has the law on him side on his side

he has the right to pull you over

then he has a gun all you have is a

are you driving behind a wheel so given

all of that legitimate

reality i wanted my sons to go

overboard to show respect for the person

respect for the position and if

something was done that was

inappropriate

to just note that and bring it back to

me so that we could

address it properly and it not escalate

into something

that uh uh uh would be damaging

particularly damaging to you

so i wanted the bit there’s a biblical

principle is to respect those in

authority

so that is an authority position we

ought to respect it that doesn’t mean

that they will always do the best

in respecting you but we can always come

back to fight it legally legitimately

another day

if it doesn’t escalate so you be in the

de-escalating position

when you’re caught in that scenario

particularly when

you are right if you did wrong and were

speeding and

and were you know going down the wrong

way then you were wrong you deserve a

ticket and you don’t

you don’t justify wrong in the name of

color

but what you do not do is accept wrong

but you have to have a legitimate way to

make it right

what are steps that you are taking in

this moment

and i’m just curious as related to

dealing with

this whole issue that we’re facing and

dealing with

anti-racism and being proactive toward

that direction and also at the same time

preserving

relationships because our family a lot

of our ministry is just cross-cultural

that’s what we do

and and all that and then who are you

who are you

are you bringing in anybody to help you

with this whole moment what’s what’s

going on on all that

well i i look at everything as you know

spiritually and theologically first

everything visible and physical is

preceded by something invisible you’re a

theocrat

did you know that yeah yeah pretty much

oh i didn’t know about that pretty much

okay i i believe that the bible is the

inner word of god

and that god speaks on all these

subjects and that he has not stuttered

so

that’s where i’m gonna start what i

believe is happening in second

chronicles 15

which says when people left god there

was a divine disruption

and there was chaos but there was a

divine disruption in order to create

a divine reset so god will often like

somebody throwing up you know it’s

as a sickness and you vomit but you

generally feel better after you do it

because you got rid of the toxins well

there’s a toxin of racism

there’s a toxin of injustice but i also

understand

that many of my white brothers and

sisters don’t understand the sickness

where it came from why it’s there

uh the history of it how it’s

contemporary

and revealed in such a contemporary

fashion how i’ve experienced it not just

as a

young man growing up but now as a grown

man

today i still have to face it in

different ways

you know i know what it is to be

rejected in churches

as an adult rejected in schools as an

adult

are rejected in the media as an adult

because of the color of my skin

but at the same time i’ve got to be a

repairer of the breach

i cannot walk around as an angry man

and still expect god to use me

to heal the wounds that are there

i’ve got to i’ve got to be a peace maker

god commands that of me so then i ought

to do everything i can to build

relationships

to help educate to be forgiving you know

they say no justice no peace but also

no forgiveness no peace and where there

is repentance

then i’m obligated to forgive and let’s

move together to correct

and let’s build something new on the

same space and not allow

the sin of racism to become the sin of

unforgiveness

he said walking around like an angry man

i i

i at some level i’m a firm believer

in righteous anger i believe in it

i believe in so when you say walking

around an angry man you’re saying

walking around an angry man that’s using

that anger and it’s becoming sinful

because of the anger or

walking around with a righteous

indignation indignation about

what’s that’s okay right the bible says

in um ephesians 4

be angry but sin not right so we should

be angry over unrighteousness

but we shouldn’t use righteous

indignation which is a good good phrase

you probably learned that from me

you should you should you shouldn’t use

righteous indignation

as an excuse for you to do the wrong

that you’re condemning right because now

you become the bible says do not take

vengeance in your own hands because then

you’ve removed

god from handling it for you and he’ll

handle it better so you can address it

but what you cannot do is return evil

for evil

and unfortunately sometimes in anger

that can happen

and that is an unrighteous response to a

legitimate

uh problem that needs to be corrected my

hope for both of you

is that you raise strong families

who love god who love each other

and who do good in the world in which

they live

we are we ought to be known for the good

we contribute

it can’t just be about you know many

people sacrificed

for me to be able to do what i do

and to become what god has allowed me to

become

and that has included included blacks

and whites of course it started with my

father

but uh but but that that has included

many people whose hearts were right

and they invested in me

and god used them to help move me along

so i hopefully have invested in you

so that you can maximize your potential

under god for the good of your family

and for the good of others

and my hope is that you will train the

next generation

to love god to love their family and to

be

model citizens who make this world

a better place to live

you