In Part 2, Denise will be joined by Angie Smith, a writer and speaker who carried her precious daughter full-term, only to have her here on Earth for a few hours. Angie continues to minister to women all over the world who have experienced the pain of losing a child. We will also have David Walley, a pastor and psychologist who will help us talk through the process of grief and loss and the hope we have in the Gospel of Christ.
hey there I am so glad that you’re here
I’m Priscilla welcome to the chat this
is the place where we just kind of you
know chat about things in our lives
things that matter today is an important
conversation because we’re going to be
talking about something that a lot of
people just kind of hold inside hold in
their hearts and in their own minds and
they don’t really talk about it they’re
not really open and honest about the way
they’re feeling we’re gonna talk about
Greece what do you do when you really
have experienced a traumatic loss one
that has left a hole in your heart and
you’re trying to figure out how you’re
going to recover from that
and move forward in health and wholeness
we’re going to talk to a couple people
today whose stories really will touch
your heart and I have a feeling they’re
going to be so many of you that are able
to relate specifically to what they say
so you’re going to want to stay tuned
grab a fresh cup of coffee or whatever
your favorite drink is pull up a chair
and let’s check
hi I’m so glad that you’re here on
Susilo and we’re going to have a great
conversation today one that I think it’s
so important in fact we’ve already been
having this conversation this is part
two of a talk that we’ve been having
that’s really important and you need to
go view episode 1 if you have not
because we’ve been talking about grief
and really how it can you and
keep you from moving forward when you’ve
had a traumatic loss in your life and
we’re going to keep that conversation
going today we have been talking to
Denise Madison would you please welcome
her again to our program she has quite a
little story and I want you to just tell
us just in a nutshell what we’ve already
talked about in episode 1 just tell us
what happened what the loss was
absolutely my husband was murdered and
so it’s my five our five children and I
just kind of going through and allowing
the Lord to speak to us through that
tragedy yep and so five children and one
on the way and one on the way well on
the way you found out about this baby
two weeks after you buried your husband
right that’s correct
yeah yeah and speaking of babies I have
a sweet friend with me her name is Angie
Smith you might be already familiar with
her but would you please help me to
welcome Angie Smith to the program as
well I’m so glad you’re here Angie I’m
honored to be here yes you have
experienced a little bit of a loss in
your life a big loss in your life as
well
how long ago first of all tell me how
long it’s been now funny to say I just
because people ask and then all of a
sudden you’ll say a number nearly has it
been that long
yeah I mean she would have turned 7 last
month Audrey would have been 7 it feels
so yeah yeah tell us tell us about that
journey you walk what happened and yeah
how are you doing today well yeah and
it’s so it’s a neat thing to have
because I do feel like we’re sort of in
lots of ways at different ends of the
spectrum the loss and the time and the
way but a lot of our questions are still
the same about who God is and I so I’m
grateful to be able to sit with you and
I so enjoyed listening to you
and had to redo my makeup right before I
came out centralizing and so yes it’s
very different loss but my husband and I
already had three daughters and and we
were expecting our fourth and it’s just
one of those like went into an
ultrasound and everyone was like are you
finally having a boy I mean that was the
only thing you know we didn’t have any
reason to believe anything was wrong and
I was about 20 weeks along and right
away it was just I could tell from the
technicians face something is really
wrong and so um to make a long story
short we found out that Audrey had
several conditions that made her what
they called incompatible his life which
and they urge us to have an abortion the
following day they what they thought the
best thing was to terminate and we just
really prayed about it and felt like the
Lord wanted us to carrier and so we did
and as long as we could and when I
delivered her on April 7th 2008 she
lived for about two and a half hours so
we got to hold her and spend time with
her and even all during the pregnancy
the girls were really already then
thinking of her as a sister and I that
made me think of that when you were
talking about being pregnant that you
know her children are seeing this and
it’s just it’s amazing the children’s
comprehension of what is coming and and
so even from very early on they were
anticipating a sister and grieved along
with soe laughter and you’re right there
is a spectrum here that is represented
by the two of you one of you has lost an
adult a spouse and the other of you a
child and to help us sort of wade
through this these waters of grief and
then also try to figure out some
practical steps for wherever you may be
on that spectrum of walking out of it is
a counselor who’s going to just really
dig in deep and help us to get some
question answered questions answered so
would you guys please help me to welcome
him he’s dr. David Walley help me too
you know I want to ask you a little bit
about this spectrum is the you know I I
would assume that grief is grief but is
there a difference in the way you grieve
or the way you feel about the loss when
it is a child versus a spouse or an
adult absolutely and it’s interesting
listening to these two ladies at
different points along the way even the
way they tell their stories you can tell
they’re in two very different places yes
it’s one was a husband one was a child
but the timing in their case is what
seems so strikingly different you can
tell here is a story where she’s
claiming strength here’s a story where
she’s lived the strength very many years
and that spectrum will become her
reality but it’s going to take a while
yeah yeah do you think doctor that time
heals or is it what you do with the time
that will determine whether or not you
heal that’s a really interesting
question I think that God uses time to
heal us but I think that one of the
things that fascinates me most about
grief is that grief is often described
as a lot of emotions and sometimes we
get bogged down in one of those emotions
we get angry we get hurt we’re afraid
we’re confused and if we wrestle with
those emotions with God
rather than get stuck in those emotions
what happens is we move from our human
temporal perspective to God’s
perspective and that’s where the healing
really happens but that does require
some time yeah that wrestling requires
some time so I do think that time is
part of the process but God gave time
its properties and he gives us the time
to heal yep Angie I want to know what
the wrestling looked like and I mean
yeah I mean in those two hours that you
were holding this child in your arms
knowing that you had limited time what
did that literally look like for you and
your husband and then in the days
following how were you able to sort of
go through that wrestling match with God
and sort of work your way out of it
instead of getting stuck in it um the
hours that we had her were so peaceful
and I say that not I am the I’m not a
gracious person I’m overly emotional and
but I feel like the Lord gave us that
day so the wrestling was sort of the
before it was you know and I you do a
better job of describing the steps but
there was this sort of like when you’re
coming to terms with what’s happening
there’s a grief that happens there in a
wrestling and I can remember being
pregnant and a few days after her
diagnosis I was at a baby shower for one
of my dear friends and I remember us
hugging on the way out in our stomachs
pushing up against each other and you
know the whole time we’d been praying
for her to have a healthy baby but
everyone in the room knew what was going
on with me and so everyone just sort of
started crying because it was like how
do you there Stackato because how do you
how do we do this right and so that day
on the way home from that I’ll just
never forget and it was raining and I
was driving home and I remember
literally screaming at the top of my
lungs and pounding on my steering wheel
and saying you can fix this fix this you
know so there was that wrestling yeah
which is the use there’s still time you
know and I always think the story of
Lazarus when I think of this because the
you know there comes that point after
he’s dead and they were like but he said
yeah you come right now he’s sick like
there’s stuff yeah and so and then again
even after so it was like while we had
her we had her then after it was a
different wrestling of now how do we
deal with that and so um I loved
something that you said and I feel like
that’s when I experienced – is that over
and over again the Lord has had to say
to me I am not intimidated by your
emotions oh so you’re mad you’re
devastated
I’m God so actually know that okay like
you can make up a pretty prayer and say
it to me and I still know your heart so
how about you just scream if you need to
in the car but you just bring it to my
feet can we just do that
I’ll just include me in authenticity
yeah and I need I needed that like I
think there’s that part of us that wants
to and I’m sure we’ve all struggled with
that you know I talked to God and
there’s a part of me that wants to edit
what I’m saying
and you know and then I feel like the
Lord really used that wrestling
before-and-after to sort of say that’s
not what I’ve asked of you I asked you
to include me in it but you’re human and
you’re wrapped in flesh and you’re going
to experience these things so yeah what
do you think would be the first step if
someone were sitting on your couch which
these ladies are right we all are we’re
sitting on your couch this is my couch
it is yeah that is and in fact this is
your show we need you to talk to us if
addressed you’re just gonna relax
weather is exactly right I want to know
what would be if you gave someone the
first step to getting out of the pit of
grief that could them what would
be sort of the first thing do this
starting today I usually ask people to
tell me their story just tell me the
story like you had Denise do tell me the
story I think a lot of people and I hear
this many many times when a person has
lost particularly a child they’re afraid
people are going to forget the child and
so I asked them to tell me the story
because it’s a way of imprinting that
story in their brain as if it’s not
already imprinted but it’s passing it
along to another person and I tell them
I’m going to carry that story with you
so I ask them to tell the story I want
to hear the story I want to know about
this I want to know about the experience
okay now let me ask a question with that
in mind because I think part of the hard
part about being in relationship with
someone who has had a loss in your life
if you’re friends with that person
you’re not exactly sure if you’re
supposed to ask them about it you’re not
exactly sure you’re kind of walking on
eggshells so as a friend of someone
who’s experiencing this would you
suggest that it is kind of out on the
floor in conversation that we do let
them know we’re a safe place to tell the
story again and again if they need to or
are we supposed to just wait
till they want to open up about that I
think inviting is always a proper thing
to do there they’re always the kinds of
two ways of communicating there are lots
of things we hear about communicating
but there are two ways demanding and
inviting and I don’t ever want to demand
that somebody tell me their story that
they could be interfering in their
privacy but inviting them to tell me
their story I always want them to feel
free to tell me their story even if they
need to tell me again
yeah that that’s part of the process for
them until they don’t need to tell it
anymore for a while and we may go and
work on some other things and then they
come back and they need to tell me the
story again so I do think that’s true
there are people because of my position
in the office I probably have more
freedom to ask people to tell me their
story people I don’t know right
but they’ve walked in with a kind of
trust but on the street I might not ask
those people to tell me their story
because I haven’t earned the right it’s
the invasion of that kind of privacy but
if I could just add this one other thing
part of telling the story and this is a
very uncomfortable way to phrase this
I’ve never figured out another way
we have pallbearers it’s not something
we do a lot at funerals anymore we don’t
really carry the casket but barring the
pall is part of that experience is
feeling the weight of the lifelessness
Wow and telling the story as a way of
bearing the pall and so I’ve become a
pallbearer with them I carry the feeling
of the weight of the gun of what’s
missing the person that used to be here
is not here anymore
I want to carry that with you is it that
an interesting way to look at that and I
think it really overall that’s sort of
what friendship should be it should be
us bearing one another one more under
the way yeah yeah and kind of helping
them with that journey we’re going to
talk more about how we can do that and
about you know I’m very interested to
talk to these ladies about some of the
things people said or did when they were
in the midst of that pain that were not
wise things to do or
say I think that could help all of us to
just be able to be responsible and be
helpful in these circumstances in
relationship so we’ll be right back in
just a few minutes stay tuned
you
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hey there welcome back we are we are
doing some healing today on the program
and talking about how you can make sure
that you’re not stuck in a place of
grief no matter why that grief is come
into your life we’ve talking to three
incredible people two of which have
experienced some loss in their lives and
they’ve been kind enough to share their
story with us and I want to know from
you two ladies both of you I want to
know if you went through a phase of
being and you’ve kind of already
described this a little bit but being
plain old flat-out mad just straight-up
mad at God mad at the situation
how were you able to get a little
softening back in your heart after just
being angry don’t go you have any
thoughts okay I was going to say and it
sort of goes back to what I said before
but that I was so and I sort of felt
like I needed to edit that and I a lot
of good came from reading at things like
Psalms where you’re like there’s a
motion and this in your reading people
who are angry you know and they’re like
why is this happened it and so for me I
finally realized oh okay I I can feel
this I can’t get stuck here i but it’s
okay for me to feel this and again just
to own it for what it was yeah to say I
think the more time I spent trying to
act like I wasn’t angry it would pile up
and then finally when I was like no I’m
I am pretty upset yeah and I’m Matt and
I’m mad at you god yeah
like and I and and and I don’t know what
to do with that and there there was
something healthy that came in a chain a
shift in my relationship with him in the
way that I saw him as a father and so I
don’t know about you have you had
moments like that yet it’s early for you
so I don’t know what I have I have one
moment in particular kind of stands out
I had by far to this point the darkest
day and what kind of struck me was that
God asked something extremely hard of
both of us that night and I kind of got
to a place where I felt like he asked
the harder thing of me
and I’m just being very frank and honest
right now because I felt like you know
my husband is now face to face with
Jesus you know but I’m here and I am
aching and I kind of got a little bit of
like Lord I am suffering and my husband
is face to face with you and you know
this is a hard thing and when people
come and say to me oh I’m just you know
I’m glad I’m so blessed by your story
and it’s just really touched me and I
would say Lord why why isn’t my pain I’m
glad for them that’s fantastic but but
but I’m the one that lives this eight
our children his parents were the ones
that are living with this ache and what
happened
as a result of that like I said it was a
it was a day a true day of just being in
despair and agony and felt you know
forsaken to be honest with you and I
felt like the next day God helped me to
see something and that was that he gave
me that as a gift my experiencing that
so that I might be able to partake in
the suffering of Christ so that I could
be more like him and and for me I can
tell you that that the the second day
the one day was so very dark but the day
that God said that was my gift to you
so that you might understand a little
bit better the suffering that Christ
endured on your behalf yeah I think that
there is a lot of freedom and listening
to you guys talk I’m just thinking about
the freedom that comes over someone when
they realize that asking the why
question is not sin like it’s not like
your total on the wrong side of the
relationship with God just because you
want to know why yeah
and on most of time we’re not going to
get an answer but why David would you
say it is important to know you’re free
to go to God authentically upset null
and ask that wife question because I
think a lot of people don’t mm-hmm why
is it important to be able to ask why
yeah because let that out be all you
don’t like not knowing yeah I mean that
sounds pretty simple but we don’t like
not knowing and we what you mentioned
earlier Angie you said there was this
moment where you said you can fix this
and that’s what anger demands anger says
something has to happen and that’s when
we go to God and say why
and he doesn’t necessarily come back and
tell us why right and that’s see that’s
one of the things that starts happening
is he starts transforming us I think
that one of the things that we get
caught up in in grief is so what do we
do what are the steps when really God is
doing stuff in us in the grieving
process that we’re not aware of that
we’re not participants in he is
constantly healing us in the grief
process without us doing anything so
when is grieving this is an interesting
thought the process is important that’s
what you’ve just said when do you know
you’ve crossed the line into an
unhealthy state of grieving when it’s no
longer a healthy beneficial process but
it is smothering you and you’re not
moving forward how does someone know
when they’ve crossed that boundary
that’s a great question
one of the things I think you have to
look at is time and relationships I
usually tell people when a significant
loss has happened you’ve lost a daughter
you’ve lost a husband it’s going to take
at least a year you have to go through
the anniversaries this is the day that
we got married this is the birthday
first birthday without him Father’s Day
is coming up and you have to go through
the anniversary of the event where he
lost his life you all of those events
you have to go through those and then
you it’s not the first time again you
kind of wonder am I going to make it
through the first Christmas so you begin
to look at time so time is a factor
there another thing is am I am i
destroying other relationships around me
because I’m not allowing those
relationships to help me be pointed to
God and my not allowing those
relationships to comfort me
am I not allowing those relationships to
be healing in my life am I being
destructive toward them so I like to
look at time and I like to look at the
relationships around them
and when anger turns to bitterness
that’s another how do you detect that
how do you detect how do you detect when
anger has become bitterness when
bitterness is anger tends to be more
acute I am angry with you because you
did this bitterness is my outlook at the
world is nothing into every all right
everything is bad it’s not going to be
good it’s just going to be bad from here
on out and that sometimes gets pointed
at somebody but most of the time it’s
just generalized so if you’re just a
mean person then you know that that
anger has taken root and it’s become a
little bit of bitterness okay to say
this a lot of time if you’re mean and
you’re angry and upset okay
so I want to know what are the worst
things that some people did they thought
they were being helpful they thought
they were being kind they thought they
were saying something that should have
been a blessing in your life should but
you just really wanted to smack them
upside down yes I did you did that
people yes but I suppose tell us how to
us because people we people that are
friends of folks that are really going
through some tough stuff you know you’re
really kind of walking on eggshells cuz
I’m not quite sure what to say or what
to do or not do how could you tell us
what just didn’t work for you and then
what did yeah and okay we talked a
little bit about this before we even
came out here because and it’s funny how
I I do think most of the time the heart
is to help I mean their motive is not
wrong they want Asians are good
absolutely and and listen grief is hard
and so stepping into someone else’s
grief is super uncomfortable and so they
want to make you feel better but you
those want to make themselves feel
better I mean they they just want to
feel like they did something that fixed
you and fix them and so instead of like
I just want to sit in this grief with
you and wrestle with it people will try
to you know I mean it totally makes
sense yeah um so some of the things that
I heard frequently and
that God needed another angel in heaven
I really struggled with that I’ve talked
a lot of people you’ve heard that before
and that’s one that I hear a lot okay
and that doesn’t work for you yeah no it
actually doesn’t it doesn’t work for
anything theologically so so just me
it’s actually just not that’s not I work
for God right so the other one that
doesn’t really work God that I heard a
lot and was um Satan took your baby you
heard that oh oh I heard all the time
all the time and so it was a harmonica
basically he won this wasn’t God God
wouldn’t do that to you because that you
know again in people’s brains it’s like
I need to believe that God is good and
Satan is evil and so if something bad
happens what’s easier to
compartmentalize you’re good and you
might put that on him and so you know we
were talking about like how do you
respond to that and I it’s hard and you
wrestle with it because sometimes there
are people who are coming to you and
saying I lost my baby but I know that
Satan took I knew that this wasn’t God
and it’s hard to wrestle through that
but theologically at the end of the day
you’re like how do you find hope in a
world where you feel like Satan can
trump God that is not this isn’t healthy
it’s not biblically accurate Sarah got
that right did he want did God want this
oh yeah did he grieve with me yes that
night in a hospital room when I handed
my daughter to a nurse and watched her
walk out of the room and I’m pounding on
every single button wanting to get her
back and the only thing I could say was
like you have to be with him because I
have nothing else
I believe he grieved that loss with me
and so no he didn’t want it but
ultimately he’s my control I only find
peace knowing he had the final say yeah
I will know I don’t know why yeah I
don’t know why but but but I can rest in
that so that that was one of the
comments that that I heard a lot and
then a lot of times I heard for me
because it was a child one that I you’ve
you know is a really common we have
three other healthy beautiful children
you know and again it’s a the effort the
I predict let’s look on the big what
have been better for them just to be
quiet that people don’t they don’t want
to be they feel like they have to fill
the silence with something instead of
just being there right and I and I will
say the month after Audrey died and
people who followed my story knew that
my nephew
and he died the next month at 10 weeks
of age of SIDS and so they’re they’re
buried together my sister-in-law was
holding her newborn healthy child and
singing over Audrey as she was buried
and I remember us looking each other and
thinking why does God choose you know of
course we had no idea so a month later
now I’m on the other side and I just
remember driving to Georgia and sitting
in front of her and realizing Angie I
didn’t know that I didn’t know that
close time out there with those yes yeah
and so I get being on the other side
because my tendency even having just
gone through it was to fill the silence
oh I get it I really do but you know you
read about Jobe and his friends and it
says at one point they came and sat with
him in his sorrow yeah it’s like
sometimes that’s awkward and just not
coming up with answers it’s just sitting
well I think that’s a freeing comment
for a lot of us that we just need to
know that sitting is just good just sit
there and wait wait for that sometimes
you’re sitting there is the invitation
they need to know you’re this safe place
where they can open up and talk about
what’s on their heart what about for you
anything people did that just or are
doing still because it’s only been four
months is there anything that just I
mean it grates on your nerves when I
hear it or see it done
absolutely so a few that I’ll that I’ll
mention one of the things and again
David you might say that this is
something that that time will change but
I really am NOT interested in anyone
talking to me about 10 years from now um
so when someone says you’ll see ten
years from now you know you’re getting
the smiles on the faces and when you
know when the babies no no there’s no
there’s no amount of time that’s going
to make the loss okay now do I believe
that it’s true that I will learn to live
with the ache and I will learn I will
learn to have strength you know day by
day absolutely and I believe that’s true
in Angie sitting here and that’s I mean
that’s proof that that’s that that’s the
case however now but what time says 10
years from now you’ll get it that what
that communicates is get over it
oh absolutely let’s get on with your
life loss isn’t isn’t going to go away
yeah it absolutely isn’t so I think
that’s that’s a really big one
and I think I think one of the others is
just kind of in general when when when
people will say to me and this is very
unique to our situation but when they’ll
say yeah but you haven’t you have a baby
it’s similar to what you’re saying about
the three children yeah but you have a
baby but you have a piece of Cory but
you have you know every time you you see
your children’s faces it’s again it’s
the same it’s along the same line it
doesn’t replace it doesn’t replace the
loss it doesn’t replace isn’t change
things so I am completely in agreement
with you just sitting with just sitting
with you and letting you cry and letting
you just kind of be and I will tell you
one of the things that I appreciate and
it’s kind of to your point about
acknowledging I had a friend so
yesterday was my birthday
and Darin oh thank you um but I had a
friend and you know had lots of people
that were there but one person just came
up to me and sat right next to me put
her hand on my knee and she said I am so
blessed to be here and to celebrate your
birthday but I just want you to know I’m
sorry that Cory is not yeah and it meant
I mean it meant the world to me so this
is what that sounds like to me
acknowledging the loss and not trying to
minimize the loss is the key to being
appropriate with someone who has
experience yes does that mean is that
sound about right absolutely I think the
other side of it is and you I think as
you get people like again it’s the
eggshells thing for me it was always
more comfortable when they would bring
it up you know in a lot of MSA why do I
say to my friend gonna go to the
hospital she’s lost and I’m like ask her
what the baby’s fingers look like ask
her whatever about the baby the baby was
old enough to what was his personality
what was he people I think in wanting to
help will tend to like not bring it up
when what we want is the chance to what
you says to tell our story yeah
final words for us what would you share
to someone who really really right now
is trying to figure out a way to get out
of this how would you encourage them I
don’t want this to sound trite at all
and to your point I really do understand
that that the ten years down the line
that that’s not a conversation to have
right now but the wrestling grieving is
hope because you’re fighting grieving is
hope and there is coming a day when
people who’ve lost will realize that God
is in control and as the scripture says
that God there’s no darkness and God God
is light and in him is no dark at all
so everything that God does is good and
right even those things he allows their
things in my own life we I’m not the
story here today but there are things in
my life that I don’t understand but if I
can’t walk out of here knowing that God
is in control and that he’s good I’m
going to hang up my sign lock up my door
and go home pull the covers over my head
what are we all doing right that’s right
are we doing this for but there is
coming a day when those two things will
settle in our hearts and our perspective
changes from this temporal place to
God’s perspective
it’s coming I can’t think of a better
note to end on to you yep would you guys
please help me to thank them for being
here today and thank them from sharing
themselves with us