When Jackie was in the first grade, she found herself dealing with gender confusion and wishing that she could be a boy. At age 17, she began pursuing her attraction to women. A few years later, she felt that God was convicting her of her current lifestyle. Jackie is now married to a wonderful man and has a new baby! Join us as we hear from Jackie about how Christ, the church and fellow Christians helped her as she walked away from a homosexual lifestyle.
hey there welcome to the program today
I’m really glad that you’re here I want
you to just get comfortable and hang out
with me for a little while as we talk
about something that I really do think
it’s important that we have a
conversation about around here you know
the topic that we’re going to address
tonight most of the time we’ve just hear
arguments about it and tick antagonism
toward it and we’re just all trying to
find our way and you might have someone
in your life personally that is dealing
with this issue so I think it’s
important for us to get as much
information as we can so we can be as
sensitive as we can
I’ll tell you all the details about it
in just second stay tuned
the young lady that I’m about to
introduce to you has been on quite a
journey in her short short 25 years she
has had some lifestyle struggles some
emotional transformations physical
transformations that really have set her
life on an entirely different trajectory
than even she would have thought
possible and what I like so much about
her is that she’s willing to be
authentic and open and share it with us
so today would you guys please help me
welcome Jackie Hill Perri to the program
have a seat get comfortable in our
little living room we’ve got going on
here I plan on it oh good good good okay
so you do have a story to tell you know
there there have been some interviews
that have been done on you that I’ve
seen there have been some opportunities
you’ve had to stand in front of groups
and share your story and also truth that
you’ve learned along the way so let’s
just start right from the beginning just
tell us what what your story is what the
crisis moment was sort of that kind of
led you down the path initially that
you’d chosen I always like to intro I
guess my life in the sense that I was
born a sinner because I think sometimes
we could talk about all the things that
happened to us when the root cause was
like I was already inherently jacked up
yeah all of us are just like we all
jacked up then early on around 4 or 5 I
was molested I had a lot of gender
confusion felt like I was supposed to be
a boy for some reason so you can
remember at four and five years old
yelling like you were supposed to be a
boy yeah things I would see men do on TV
I tried to imitate so I would like try
to stand up over the toilet to pee or I
would take a towel and wrap it around my
waist instead of my chest um and it
wasn’t that necessarily something I was
taught it was just like I just like
doing masculine things and when you saw
female attributes on television as well
there was nothing about that that sort
of resonated with you you didn’t
identify with that I did but I didn’t it
was both an OK so it was like I’m raised
by my mother so I still want to be like
her but I also still am attracted to
this mask
and thing okay so okay so this is four
or five years old when you start to feel
this way yeah all right and then um so I
remember early on first second gray have
the same-sex attractions too like girls
in my class didn’t necessarily know that
it was wrong I just but I knew it was
wrong okay I just I just knew about it
didn’t feel right yet it just felt like
you yeah what works for you yeah okay
and so and when what let me stop you
there because what does that look like
in first grade what do you what were you
feeling in first grade or second grade
that caused you to feel like there was a
connection with a little girl that there
might not have been with a boy I don’t
know I guess it would be the same as a
five year old having a crush on a little
girl it was not had a crush on little
girls too um and little boys and so we
just me I remember being six and seven
doing very inappropriate things with
little girls and like the little cabins
on the playground um and we would try to
hide from our teachers just to do stuff
and so it was just it was just weird but
I think a lot of that was also
pornography
I saw pornography really really really
early in your in your home yeah because
we had cable and so it’s terrible is not
funny but when my mom would go to sleep
I would just go in the living room and
watch stuff I wasn’t supposed to watch
it so I just had a lot of him with
molestation the sexual perversion of
that and then the pornography and then
the gender confusion it was just this
big ball of men you know what’s so
interesting my husband and I travel a
lot we tap the boys we have three boys
we travel with them a lot too and when
we’re in hotel rooms which we are quite
frequently
you know I’ll set the channel on what
the boys can watch that night or
whatever and then I take the remote
control took two you know we have
adjoining rooms yeah I take the remote
control in our room and the reason why
is because exactly what you’ve just said
you don’t even have to be looking for
the wrong images yeah just kind of
flipping from one channel to the next
it’s amazing what’s just on regular old
television especially now yeah
especially now so that so when you’re
four or five years old you’re saying
you’re just
there’s cable yeah and you’d have to go
pay for something no you just flipping
channels and there you go and I found it
you found it yeah and then did you go
start looking for once you’d found it
yeah you were intrigued by it that was
my for like Internet and stuff like that
and so it was only just on cable so if
we went over
people’s houses that had cable I knew
what channels to go to and so I was in I
would invite my friends to watch it with
me and stuff like that so it was just
really intriguing to watch what I didn’t
understand did your mom know at all that
only of this was happening with no she
didn’t find out I was into pornography
until high school okay so this is you’re
talking about from young early very
early all the way up through high school
you’re having an addiction with
pornography and you’re finding that
you’ve got the same-sex attraction
happening okay and then I think being
fatherless was a factor too because it’s
like my dad he was he was so
inconsistent in my life that that taught
me okay men can’t be trusted but my
mother can women can and so I think just
all of that just made me be a lot more
open to homosexuality than I would have
intended to do you think that the
dynamics in your your structure at home
with you like you said your dad not
being very present and your mom being
there well in general do you think
homosexuality and a person’s willingness
to sort of just kind of move their life
in that direction is it caused by those
dynamics do you think or does do those
dynamics just support and encourage it
and kind of push the person down that
path
I think they support and encourage it
because it’s plenty of people that are
in the homosexual lifestyle they had a
dad that weren’t molested right I did
not get into pornography but that’s just
a natural feeling that they they have
but I also think that how we grow up
just it just encourages you toward that
end okay so you’ve got pornography you
have got this these natural inclination
right and obviously you had people
around you little friends around you
that are watching it with you in 12 and
13 and 14 years old so you’ve kind of
got a group of people yeah that are
walking this path yeah we were a lot of
nasty looking it’s in the set up if it
was Illustrated I love that you’re
willing to be able to talk about it
because you know there are a lot of
little kids young ladies that are
probably watching this program even now
and just the fact that you’re willing to
say here’s what what’s happening when I
was 12
yeah that’s what I was doing when I was
13 yeah not only is it gonna make the
radar of Mama’s go up and say hey I need
to be
a little bit closer attention to what my
child has access to yeah but then it
might make this 12 or 13 or 14 year old
say hey you know what if she can be
honest then I can be honest too yeah
were you ever did your mom find out or
were you honest we found out she how did
she find out I used her computer to
watch porn and did not delete it from
the history and so when she was on a
flight she was on her computer and as
she saw it okay yeah all right and at
that point that she just know about the
pornography or was there something about
that that would have let her know that
your interest was in women as opposed to
men she didn’t find that out until I was
18 and that story is really interesting
tell us a story girl tell us the story
God set me up okay he always does he
does he completely set me a will so we
were in the car driving to work and at
this time I was in a full-blown
relationship with this one girl and I
was also transitioning into being a stud
which is the lesbian that dresses like a
boy acts like a boy stuff like that and
so the radio show the topic was women
call in if you have homosexual daughters
and tell us the signs and so all of the
signs that these women were talking
about were me your mother’s listening to
this we both listen to do both listening
to yes I’m sitting in the car like oh my
gosh it’s like nothing I can do about
this like I can’t say let me out okay to
us why he was slapping yeah you got my
kind of mama yeah got my kind of money
this is a joke are you don’t pay no
bills that’s Frank um and so she turned
to me and she said is that you and she
was brave enough to just ask yeah and
she asked me before and I lied but it
came to a point where it was just like
you can’t deny this now um and I told
her I said yeah and then she just was
like I knew it and so we had the talk
that I she have mad then she was hurt
she was hurt yeah she didn’t seem angry
she seemed really deeply hurt was she
surprised no
yeah cuz me and my girlfriend at the
time I called her my best friend but she
was the she my mama is stupid like the
interactions were not normal the
frequency of our hanging out was not
normal I’m a loner by nature and so all
of a sudden this person is here every
single day when Jackie does not invite
people to her house and so she knew
something was different and so I want to
know what your teenagers look like in
terms of your saying when you got to 17
18 you had this one girlfriend but but
were you acting out your attraction to
females all throughout this 12 13 14 15
okay no so you’re having the feelings
internally but you’re not necessarily
acting acting them out right how are you
able to what happened what changed at 17
that you were like okay I’m going to not
just feel this way yeah I’m going to
actually pursue that instead of having a
boyfriend I’m going to go with a woman I
think the thing that initially kept me
was I had a in my life who was a
Christian and so for the first 10 years
of my life I grew I went to church every
Sunday and so I always knew that
lesbianism and homosexuality was wrong I
always knew that it deserved God’s wrath
always knew that it just wasn’t what
you’re supposed to do and so for a long
time though I was not a believer it was
like I can’t do that cuz I’m gonna go to
hell even though everything else I did
was ratchet to Ben anyway I love that
word ratchet I love that because all of
us in some form or fashion are just
right yeah the flesh is ratchet it isn’t
it yeah it is yes it there’s a joke
about my husband because my husband my
husband is saved loves the Lord but he’s
like one of those people you know you
cross him the wrong way he’s coming
after you so we call him ratchet saved
it happens it happened I love them
though that’s right God loves all of us
and I’m so grateful okay we’re gonna
take a break for just a second we’re
gonna come back and finish talking just
a little bit more with Jackie Hill Perri
thank you so much for me
hi I’m Priscilla and I wanted to take an
opportunity to invite you personally to
join me for a seventh session Bible
study on the armor of God will dive
deeply into what it means to be equipped
to stand firm against the schemes of the
enemy he is very real and he has been so
strategic and targeted his attacks
against us why shouldn’t we be equally
strategic than targeted in standing
firms against him and you and I have an
opportunity to suit up to put on some
armor that works and to go to battle and
to see victory declared in our lives in
the lives of those people that we learn
this Bible study will be one that will
change our lives forever and will help
us to walk in victory so plan to join me
William the armour of God
we are having a really good conversation
a very insightful conversation with
Jackie she’s just kind of filling us in
on her life where she has been and where
she is now so Jackie you were right in
the middle of kind of telling us what
was happening in your life what caused
the switch of you just not just being
attracted to the same sex but actually
acting out on it what what happened was
I went to my I think it was senior I
went to a senior homecoming dance at
another high school and this girl that I
had knew in middle school she flirted
with me and that was the first time that
a woman ever flirted with me in a bold
way and it just lit some aamir it was
like I want to pursue this and I think I
wouldn’t have pursued it on my own it
was the fact that somebody else
initiated and all I had to do was just
follow yeah and so when that happened it
was just a wrap and so I was with her
like two weeks
it wasn’t even serious and but after
that I was like you know what let me try
to go back to men and I remember I
called a friend that we used to just
mess around and I remember kissing him
and it disgusted me now I was like huh
must be gay so let me just be with women
and it was just that there was answered
yeah the question was answered yeah so I
have a question for you I want to kind
of go back and I love that you you don’t
mind sort of invasive questions because
this is a precarious position that I’m
in it’s like I don’t want I don’t want
someone to feel like I am invading their
lives but the only way to to get it you
know what is latent okay I’m so glad all
right thanks for permission all right so
you mentioned something that I’m just
trying to kind of get a handle on you
said you were sort of transitioning to
being a stud right okay describe what
that actually means that transitioning
to that and what separates if someone is
in a lesbian relationship what separates
the stud from the other partner and just
what are those dynamics look like and
who’s making the decisions as to who is
who
yeah okay so my transition started slow
because you know it’s it’s it’s awkward
you’re dealing with shame you’re Dilek
because when you transition when you
start changing your clothes
that’s your coming-out and so though you
didn’t though you don’t verbalize it
it’s just like okay why is she dressing
like that it’s like it’s just
bold step and so it started slowly with
his pants when it’s like like baggy
pants with a regular shirt and then
baggy pants and a baggy shirt and then
baggy pants with boxers and a big shirt
and so it was just really pressing slow
like that but I think the distinction
the the type of females I were with are
called fins and so fins are the girl who
is she just she’s a regular girl she
doesn’t look gay whatever that means
she’s just a regular girly girl girly
girls girls there’s nails eyelashes all
that type stuff and is that who you
would be attracted to as opposed to it
wouldn’t be a stud no okay because it’s
those gross – I’m because that’s too
close to mail ya want FEMA that and I’m
a I’m naturally an aggressive person
anyway and so I don’t want to be with
another aggressor I want to be with
somebody that’s submissive okay so
that’s how it was like I want women that
will submit to me and that’s and I think
it was just a control thing because even
when you when I think we’re not when I
came to the Lord and I start to dissect
that it was like I was in relationships
with people that I could control because
if I can control them then they can’t
hurt me and so I in my mind I thought
men are strong enough to hurt me mm-hmm
so yeah I want to know if you were
lonely if you were lonely when your mom
didn’t know when you had not yet kind of
come out when you’re kind of harboring
since for you’re harboring this this
reality that’s very real to you that you
feel like you should be a boy you feel
like you’re attracted to women is that a
lonely place to be in where you’re
trying to hide that it wasn’t for me
okay I know for some it is but for me I
think yeah it wasn’t I can’t explain
what yeah there’s somebody in my life
that is that that I am just discovering
you after you know this person’s like
close to 40 now and has lived their
entire life with no one knowing this has
been their struggle and what hit me the
most about that was I was yeah was a
little bit shocked to hear it but my
first emotional response was that I was
so sad
they had lived all of these years having
to be so closed up and concerned about
what everybody’s going to think and I
thought that must be lonely do you find
that even though that wasn’t your
response do you find that a lot of
people that you know struggle with this
are living very lonely existences none
that I know personally I think I just
know a lot of real honest people but I
do know that because it’s so much shame
around coming out that it can be lonely
it can be scary because it’s like you
could potentially what’s the word I
guess you can potentially have people
that love you and that you love
completely treat you different and not
love you and just cut you off in ways
that you don’t want and so it’s like I
think that’s what most people are
worried about who have not come out
there’s people who love me are not going
to love me anymore yes that’s the major
argument I want I just want you to love
me past it how could someone have helped
you to feel confident enough to share
with them your what you were what you
were facing is there something that mom
or grandma aunt or friend could have
done that would have made you feel like
I can be Who I am
tell them the truth and I’m not going to
lose their their approval in terms of
who you are I don’t think they could
have honestly I feel like the only way
that I would have been comfortable in
sharing that is if I knew the person I
shared it with accepted it okay and I
mean they work there we’re going to
approve the activity okay and I don’t
think that’s okay I think I think to
accept it and have this approval of the
action it makes me comfortable or more
comfortable in my sin and I don’t think
that’s healthy right it’s that’s for me
though I think that’s what people seek
out is I’m going to tell people that I
know won’t say that this is I don’t
think that’s just you I think that’s in
general all of us we kind of want to
tell people stuff that we know they’re
going to go yeah all right girl yeah I
told people that I knew would be okay
with it I can tell people that I knew
would disapprove I’m wondering if you
think that it is harder for someone to
come out in the african-american
community than in other communities
men yes for men yes yes why not for
women I don’t know I think for some
reason with women it’s a lot more
palatable because even in me telling my
testimony I get that so encouraging oh
my goodness thank you for sharing that
but I have men in my life who have come
out of homosexuality and when they share
it people still I don’t know if I want
you to be my brother in Christ nothing
there are something about the images of
women together I think so I think our
minds have been tainted where we don’t
see that both our wicked both are evil
but also when this person is deliberate
in this person is deliberate both are
worthy of praise and encouragement it’s
very interesting because that image of
women together is something that is
actually considered for men something
enjoyable to watch something that is
erotic for them and the same is not
necessarily true on the flip side of the
coin yep and so we’ve put then our men
in a position who need to be honest
about their same-sex struggles in a
place where particularly in the
african-american community I think in
general but in the african-american
media it is tough it is for a black man
to say this is my struggle it is even in
the church you get districts you you
it’s like you open yourself up to
disrespect as if you’re less than
because of your sexual attraction or
sexual orientation well you’re married
now yes to a man a whole man oh okay so
we do have a part two of this
conversation that we’re going to have
we’re going to be able to go more in
depth with this but for now I want you
to just tell me what was sort of the the
moment that moved you from where you
were to now having been in a
relationship with a man successfully
married for a year didn’t have a baby
yes how what was the just tell me what
was the flippin point that brought took
you from there to here salvation and I
don’t mean that in a super christiany
way it was literally me seeing that
everything I was doing not just
homosexuality but the print
agra fee the weed the drunkenness –
stealing the lying wholistically I
needed God and I in faith somehow God
was so gracious to show me that
everything that he is and everything
that he wants of me is good for me and
so that just put me in a place where
it’s like when God saved me it’s just
like I just ran after truth you know not
naturally but it’s just that’s what I
wanted you know what I love is that you
didn’t compartmentalize the
homosexuality because I think we do that
I think we elevate this we did one part
of someone’s experience or our own
experience and we we don’t put
everything on the same light that it’s
really not about homosexuality that it’s
about sin
Carson it’s a heart it’s a heart issue
and so did you find that that overall
what you needed to do was surrender yes
everything my affections my feelings my
rights my idea that I am wiser than God
just everything needed I had to see
Jackie you don’t know anything but he
God does and he knows was better than
for you and he loves you and he cares
for you and I promise you if you just
believe them just trust them
just let them just let them do him in
your life you will have joy and it takes
time to believe that it takes a miracle
to believe that but God is really able
to do that to everybody
well we have to have a part to about
this conversation because there’s so
many other things to ask like I want to
know if it’s hard for you having having
kind of been in that lifestyle for so
long to now be married is there still
any draw or temptation or desire that
you still have to deal with as you walk
in freedom you know so we have we just
have so much more to talk about okay so
this has been a great part one of the
conversation but we’re going to have a
part two so make sure that you even
though we’re finishing for today make
sure that you stay tuned because you’re
going to want to hear everything that
jackie brilliantly and so articulately
has to share with us so would you guys
please thank her for being with us today
you