When Jackie was in the first grade, she found herself dealing with gender confusion and wishing that she could be a boy. At age 17, she began pursuing her attraction to women. A few years later, she felt that God was convicting her of her current lifestyle. Jackie is now married to a wonderful man and has a new baby! Join us as we hear from Jackie about how Christ, the church and fellow Christians helped her as she walked away from a homosexual lifestyle.

hey there welcome to the program today

I’m really glad that you’re here I want

you to just get comfortable and hang out

with me for a little while as we talk

about something that I really do think

it’s important that we have a

conversation about around here you know

the topic that we’re going to address

tonight most of the time we’ve just hear

arguments about it and tick antagonism

toward it and we’re just all trying to

find our way and you might have someone

in your life personally that is dealing

with this issue so I think it’s

important for us to get as much

information as we can so we can be as

sensitive as we can

I’ll tell you all the details about it

in just second stay tuned

the young lady that I’m about to

introduce to you has been on quite a

journey in her short short 25 years she

has had some lifestyle struggles some

emotional transformations physical

transformations that really have set her

life on an entirely different trajectory

than even she would have thought

possible and what I like so much about

her is that she’s willing to be

authentic and open and share it with us

so today would you guys please help me

welcome Jackie Hill Perri to the program

have a seat get comfortable in our

little living room we’ve got going on

here I plan on it oh good good good okay

so you do have a story to tell you know

there there have been some interviews

that have been done on you that I’ve

seen there have been some opportunities

you’ve had to stand in front of groups

and share your story and also truth that

you’ve learned along the way so let’s

just start right from the beginning just

tell us what what your story is what the

crisis moment was sort of that kind of

led you down the path initially that

you’d chosen I always like to intro I

guess my life in the sense that I was

born a sinner because I think sometimes

we could talk about all the things that

happened to us when the root cause was

like I was already inherently jacked up

yeah all of us are just like we all

jacked up then early on around 4 or 5 I

was molested I had a lot of gender

confusion felt like I was supposed to be

a boy for some reason so you can

remember at four and five years old

yelling like you were supposed to be a

boy yeah things I would see men do on TV

I tried to imitate so I would like try

to stand up over the toilet to pee or I

would take a towel and wrap it around my

waist instead of my chest um and it

wasn’t that necessarily something I was

taught it was just like I just like

doing masculine things and when you saw

female attributes on television as well

there was nothing about that that sort

of resonated with you you didn’t

identify with that I did but I didn’t it

was both an OK so it was like I’m raised

by my mother so I still want to be like

her but I also still am attracted to

this mask

and thing okay so okay so this is four

or five years old when you start to feel

this way yeah all right and then um so I

remember early on first second gray have

the same-sex attractions too like girls

in my class didn’t necessarily know that

it was wrong I just but I knew it was

wrong okay I just I just knew about it

didn’t feel right yet it just felt like

you yeah what works for you yeah okay

and so and when what let me stop you

there because what does that look like

in first grade what do you what were you

feeling in first grade or second grade

that caused you to feel like there was a

connection with a little girl that there

might not have been with a boy I don’t

know I guess it would be the same as a

five year old having a crush on a little

girl it was not had a crush on little

girls too um and little boys and so we

just me I remember being six and seven

doing very inappropriate things with

little girls and like the little cabins

on the playground um and we would try to

hide from our teachers just to do stuff

and so it was just it was just weird but

I think a lot of that was also

pornography

I saw pornography really really really

early in your in your home yeah because

we had cable and so it’s terrible is not

funny but when my mom would go to sleep

I would just go in the living room and

watch stuff I wasn’t supposed to watch

it so I just had a lot of him with

molestation the sexual perversion of

that and then the pornography and then

the gender confusion it was just this

big ball of men you know what’s so

interesting my husband and I travel a

lot we tap the boys we have three boys

we travel with them a lot too and when

we’re in hotel rooms which we are quite

frequently

you know I’ll set the channel on what

the boys can watch that night or

whatever and then I take the remote

control took two you know we have

adjoining rooms yeah I take the remote

control in our room and the reason why

is because exactly what you’ve just said

you don’t even have to be looking for

the wrong images yeah just kind of

flipping from one channel to the next

it’s amazing what’s just on regular old

television especially now yeah

especially now so that so when you’re

four or five years old you’re saying

you’re just

there’s cable yeah and you’d have to go

pay for something no you just flipping

channels and there you go and I found it

you found it yeah and then did you go

start looking for once you’d found it

yeah you were intrigued by it that was

my for like Internet and stuff like that

and so it was only just on cable so if

we went over

people’s houses that had cable I knew

what channels to go to and so I was in I

would invite my friends to watch it with

me and stuff like that so it was just

really intriguing to watch what I didn’t

understand did your mom know at all that

only of this was happening with no she

didn’t find out I was into pornography

until high school okay so this is you’re

talking about from young early very

early all the way up through high school

you’re having an addiction with

pornography and you’re finding that

you’ve got the same-sex attraction

happening okay and then I think being

fatherless was a factor too because it’s

like my dad he was he was so

inconsistent in my life that that taught

me okay men can’t be trusted but my

mother can women can and so I think just

all of that just made me be a lot more

open to homosexuality than I would have

intended to do you think that the

dynamics in your your structure at home

with you like you said your dad not

being very present and your mom being

there well in general do you think

homosexuality and a person’s willingness

to sort of just kind of move their life

in that direction is it caused by those

dynamics do you think or does do those

dynamics just support and encourage it

and kind of push the person down that

path

I think they support and encourage it

because it’s plenty of people that are

in the homosexual lifestyle they had a

dad that weren’t molested right I did

not get into pornography but that’s just

a natural feeling that they they have

but I also think that how we grow up

just it just encourages you toward that

end okay so you’ve got pornography you

have got this these natural inclination

right and obviously you had people

around you little friends around you

that are watching it with you in 12 and

13 and 14 years old so you’ve kind of

got a group of people yeah that are

walking this path yeah we were a lot of

nasty looking it’s in the set up if it

was Illustrated I love that you’re

willing to be able to talk about it

because you know there are a lot of

little kids young ladies that are

probably watching this program even now

and just the fact that you’re willing to

say here’s what what’s happening when I

was 12

yeah that’s what I was doing when I was

13 yeah not only is it gonna make the

radar of Mama’s go up and say hey I need

to be

a little bit closer attention to what my

child has access to yeah but then it

might make this 12 or 13 or 14 year old

say hey you know what if she can be

honest then I can be honest too yeah

were you ever did your mom find out or

were you honest we found out she how did

she find out I used her computer to

watch porn and did not delete it from

the history and so when she was on a

flight she was on her computer and as

she saw it okay yeah all right and at

that point that she just know about the

pornography or was there something about

that that would have let her know that

your interest was in women as opposed to

men she didn’t find that out until I was

18 and that story is really interesting

tell us a story girl tell us the story

God set me up okay he always does he

does he completely set me a will so we

were in the car driving to work and at

this time I was in a full-blown

relationship with this one girl and I

was also transitioning into being a stud

which is the lesbian that dresses like a

boy acts like a boy stuff like that and

so the radio show the topic was women

call in if you have homosexual daughters

and tell us the signs and so all of the

signs that these women were talking

about were me your mother’s listening to

this we both listen to do both listening

to yes I’m sitting in the car like oh my

gosh it’s like nothing I can do about

this like I can’t say let me out okay to

us why he was slapping yeah you got my

kind of mama yeah got my kind of money

this is a joke are you don’t pay no

bills that’s Frank um and so she turned

to me and she said is that you and she

was brave enough to just ask yeah and

she asked me before and I lied but it

came to a point where it was just like

you can’t deny this now um and I told

her I said yeah and then she just was

like I knew it and so we had the talk

that I she have mad then she was hurt

she was hurt yeah she didn’t seem angry

she seemed really deeply hurt was she

surprised no

yeah cuz me and my girlfriend at the

time I called her my best friend but she

was the she my mama is stupid like the

interactions were not normal the

frequency of our hanging out was not

normal I’m a loner by nature and so all

of a sudden this person is here every

single day when Jackie does not invite

people to her house and so she knew

something was different and so I want to

know what your teenagers look like in

terms of your saying when you got to 17

18 you had this one girlfriend but but

were you acting out your attraction to

females all throughout this 12 13 14 15

okay no so you’re having the feelings

internally but you’re not necessarily

acting acting them out right how are you

able to what happened what changed at 17

that you were like okay I’m going to not

just feel this way yeah I’m going to

actually pursue that instead of having a

boyfriend I’m going to go with a woman I

think the thing that initially kept me

was I had a in my life who was a

Christian and so for the first 10 years

of my life I grew I went to church every

Sunday and so I always knew that

lesbianism and homosexuality was wrong I

always knew that it deserved God’s wrath

always knew that it just wasn’t what

you’re supposed to do and so for a long

time though I was not a believer it was

like I can’t do that cuz I’m gonna go to

hell even though everything else I did

was ratchet to Ben anyway I love that

word ratchet I love that because all of

us in some form or fashion are just

right yeah the flesh is ratchet it isn’t

it yeah it is yes it there’s a joke

about my husband because my husband my

husband is saved loves the Lord but he’s

like one of those people you know you

cross him the wrong way he’s coming

after you so we call him ratchet saved

it happens it happened I love them

though that’s right God loves all of us

and I’m so grateful okay we’re gonna

take a break for just a second we’re

gonna come back and finish talking just

a little bit more with Jackie Hill Perri

thank you so much for me

hi I’m Priscilla and I wanted to take an

opportunity to invite you personally to

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we are having a really good conversation

a very insightful conversation with

Jackie she’s just kind of filling us in

on her life where she has been and where

she is now so Jackie you were right in

the middle of kind of telling us what

was happening in your life what caused

the switch of you just not just being

attracted to the same sex but actually

acting out on it what what happened was

I went to my I think it was senior I

went to a senior homecoming dance at

another high school and this girl that I

had knew in middle school she flirted

with me and that was the first time that

a woman ever flirted with me in a bold

way and it just lit some aamir it was

like I want to pursue this and I think I

wouldn’t have pursued it on my own it

was the fact that somebody else

initiated and all I had to do was just

follow yeah and so when that happened it

was just a wrap and so I was with her

like two weeks

it wasn’t even serious and but after

that I was like you know what let me try

to go back to men and I remember I

called a friend that we used to just

mess around and I remember kissing him

and it disgusted me now I was like huh

must be gay so let me just be with women

and it was just that there was answered

yeah the question was answered yeah so I

have a question for you I want to kind

of go back and I love that you you don’t

mind sort of invasive questions because

this is a precarious position that I’m

in it’s like I don’t want I don’t want

someone to feel like I am invading their

lives but the only way to to get it you

know what is latent okay I’m so glad all

right thanks for permission all right so

you mentioned something that I’m just

trying to kind of get a handle on you

said you were sort of transitioning to

being a stud right okay describe what

that actually means that transitioning

to that and what separates if someone is

in a lesbian relationship what separates

the stud from the other partner and just

what are those dynamics look like and

who’s making the decisions as to who is

who

yeah okay so my transition started slow

because you know it’s it’s it’s awkward

you’re dealing with shame you’re Dilek

because when you transition when you

start changing your clothes

that’s your coming-out and so though you

didn’t though you don’t verbalize it

it’s just like okay why is she dressing

like that it’s like it’s just

bold step and so it started slowly with

his pants when it’s like like baggy

pants with a regular shirt and then

baggy pants and a baggy shirt and then

baggy pants with boxers and a big shirt

and so it was just really pressing slow

like that but I think the distinction

the the type of females I were with are

called fins and so fins are the girl who

is she just she’s a regular girl she

doesn’t look gay whatever that means

she’s just a regular girly girl girly

girls girls there’s nails eyelashes all

that type stuff and is that who you

would be attracted to as opposed to it

wouldn’t be a stud no okay because it’s

those gross – I’m because that’s too

close to mail ya want FEMA that and I’m

a I’m naturally an aggressive person

anyway and so I don’t want to be with

another aggressor I want to be with

somebody that’s submissive okay so

that’s how it was like I want women that

will submit to me and that’s and I think

it was just a control thing because even

when you when I think we’re not when I

came to the Lord and I start to dissect

that it was like I was in relationships

with people that I could control because

if I can control them then they can’t

hurt me and so I in my mind I thought

men are strong enough to hurt me mm-hmm

so yeah I want to know if you were

lonely if you were lonely when your mom

didn’t know when you had not yet kind of

come out when you’re kind of harboring

since for you’re harboring this this

reality that’s very real to you that you

feel like you should be a boy you feel

like you’re attracted to women is that a

lonely place to be in where you’re

trying to hide that it wasn’t for me

okay I know for some it is but for me I

think yeah it wasn’t I can’t explain

what yeah there’s somebody in my life

that is that that I am just discovering

you after you know this person’s like

close to 40 now and has lived their

entire life with no one knowing this has

been their struggle and what hit me the

most about that was I was yeah was a

little bit shocked to hear it but my

first emotional response was that I was

so sad

they had lived all of these years having

to be so closed up and concerned about

what everybody’s going to think and I

thought that must be lonely do you find

that even though that wasn’t your

response do you find that a lot of

people that you know struggle with this

are living very lonely existences none

that I know personally I think I just

know a lot of real honest people but I

do know that because it’s so much shame

around coming out that it can be lonely

it can be scary because it’s like you

could potentially what’s the word I

guess you can potentially have people

that love you and that you love

completely treat you different and not

love you and just cut you off in ways

that you don’t want and so it’s like I

think that’s what most people are

worried about who have not come out

there’s people who love me are not going

to love me anymore yes that’s the major

argument I want I just want you to love

me past it how could someone have helped

you to feel confident enough to share

with them your what you were what you

were facing is there something that mom

or grandma aunt or friend could have

done that would have made you feel like

I can be Who I am

tell them the truth and I’m not going to

lose their their approval in terms of

who you are I don’t think they could

have honestly I feel like the only way

that I would have been comfortable in

sharing that is if I knew the person I

shared it with accepted it okay and I

mean they work there we’re going to

approve the activity okay and I don’t

think that’s okay I think I think to

accept it and have this approval of the

action it makes me comfortable or more

comfortable in my sin and I don’t think

that’s healthy right it’s that’s for me

though I think that’s what people seek

out is I’m going to tell people that I

know won’t say that this is I don’t

think that’s just you I think that’s in

general all of us we kind of want to

tell people stuff that we know they’re

going to go yeah all right girl yeah I

told people that I knew would be okay

with it I can tell people that I knew

would disapprove I’m wondering if you

think that it is harder for someone to

come out in the african-american

community than in other communities

men yes for men yes yes why not for

women I don’t know I think for some

reason with women it’s a lot more

palatable because even in me telling my

testimony I get that so encouraging oh

my goodness thank you for sharing that

but I have men in my life who have come

out of homosexuality and when they share

it people still I don’t know if I want

you to be my brother in Christ nothing

there are something about the images of

women together I think so I think our

minds have been tainted where we don’t

see that both our wicked both are evil

but also when this person is deliberate

in this person is deliberate both are

worthy of praise and encouragement it’s

very interesting because that image of

women together is something that is

actually considered for men something

enjoyable to watch something that is

erotic for them and the same is not

necessarily true on the flip side of the

coin yep and so we’ve put then our men

in a position who need to be honest

about their same-sex struggles in a

place where particularly in the

african-american community I think in

general but in the african-american

media it is tough it is for a black man

to say this is my struggle it is even in

the church you get districts you you

it’s like you open yourself up to

disrespect as if you’re less than

because of your sexual attraction or

sexual orientation well you’re married

now yes to a man a whole man oh okay so

we do have a part two of this

conversation that we’re going to have

we’re going to be able to go more in

depth with this but for now I want you

to just tell me what was sort of the the

moment that moved you from where you

were to now having been in a

relationship with a man successfully

married for a year didn’t have a baby

yes how what was the just tell me what

was the flippin point that brought took

you from there to here salvation and I

don’t mean that in a super christiany

way it was literally me seeing that

everything I was doing not just

homosexuality but the print

agra fee the weed the drunkenness –

stealing the lying wholistically I

needed God and I in faith somehow God

was so gracious to show me that

everything that he is and everything

that he wants of me is good for me and

so that just put me in a place where

it’s like when God saved me it’s just

like I just ran after truth you know not

naturally but it’s just that’s what I

wanted you know what I love is that you

didn’t compartmentalize the

homosexuality because I think we do that

I think we elevate this we did one part

of someone’s experience or our own

experience and we we don’t put

everything on the same light that it’s

really not about homosexuality that it’s

about sin

Carson it’s a heart it’s a heart issue

and so did you find that that overall

what you needed to do was surrender yes

everything my affections my feelings my

rights my idea that I am wiser than God

just everything needed I had to see

Jackie you don’t know anything but he

God does and he knows was better than

for you and he loves you and he cares

for you and I promise you if you just

believe them just trust them

just let them just let them do him in

your life you will have joy and it takes

time to believe that it takes a miracle

to believe that but God is really able

to do that to everybody

well we have to have a part to about

this conversation because there’s so

many other things to ask like I want to

know if it’s hard for you having having

kind of been in that lifestyle for so

long to now be married is there still

any draw or temptation or desire that

you still have to deal with as you walk

in freedom you know so we have we just

have so much more to talk about okay so

this has been a great part one of the

conversation but we’re going to have a

part two so make sure that you even

though we’re finishing for today make

sure that you stay tuned because you’re

going to want to hear everything that

jackie brilliantly and so articulately

has to share with us so would you guys

please thank her for being with us today

you