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when i was growing up they taught on
hell a lot you know yeah
i didn’t really find out about the love
of god until later i was determined that
i was going to live right because i
wasn’t going to hell
but when you understand the love of god
shame just melts away
yes you know but as unbelievers new
people they don’t know that’s why it’s
up to us to really show
and reveal the love of god
because god
he while we were still sinners he died
for us
[Music]
we’ve been talking about building a
healthy church and today our
conversation is centered on creating
safe spaces and i really want to kick it
off by reading this scripture in ezekiel
34 from verse 4 to 6. so it says the
weak you have not strengthened the sick
you have not healed the injured you have
not bound up the straight you have not
brought back the lost you have not
sought and with force and harshness you
have ruled them so they were scattered
because there was no shepherd and they
became food for all the wild beasts my
sheep were scattered they wandered over
all the mountains and on every hill my
sheep were scattered over all the face
of the earth with none to search or seek
for them now in this scripture the lord
is communicating to
certain shepherds that have lost sight
of their responsibilities and he was
communicating that through the prophet
ezekiel what stood out to me so much is
that he calls the weak the lost
the broken all of that he says these are
my sheep not people that will be my
sheep when they have transformation when
they get it together that in the
messiness of their situation that the
lord identified them as his sheep and i
think we begin to change um not even you
know where we see brokenness sometimes
like in the body that that perspective
begins to change when we embrace how to
see people the way jesus sees people to
recognize that the messiness of your
situation because that can be expressed
in so many ways that can be expressed in
someone who’s dealing with lust it
dealing with jealousy dealing with an
identity crisis all kinds of things but
that jesus looks and he says these are
still my sheep the truth of it is that
for any of us and really for all of us
but for those watching as well that when
you come into christ there is a
transformation that takes place through
the intimacy of that relationship but
transformation now becomes the fruit and
the evidence of the relationship but
what it takes to get there is a lot of
shedding a lot of unlearning and
literally people on a journey now i have
been in certain you know church settings
and it wasn’t really about the
leadership of the house having a
judgmental mindset but again the church
is for all people right everyone walks
in and there are times where you will
see where people can be a bit judgmental
or even just christians being a bit
judgmental because your way of following
jesus does not look like my way of
following him but i believe it’s getting
back to the word of god god looks at the
loss god looked at the the scattered god
looked at all of that and he said this
are my sheep and again there is the
institution of pastors prophets
evangelists and all of that and in this
scripture when he’s talking about
shepherds i believe that we are all
shepherds to some capacity some of us
are shepherds in our home some of us are
shepherds in the church some of us are
shepherds for a community there are
teachers that could be watching this and
your shepherds to your the kids in your
classroom and so at the end of the day
it’s coming to this place that hey when
someone’s outlook on life when so the
way someone carries themselves it may
not look like what i believe is the way
in christ but maybe you’re still in that
seed stage maybe there’s still a work
that god is doing in you and i have no
knowledge of you know our job as
believers is to point people to jesus
and it is the holy spirit’s work to
bring transformation and as long as i
can say hey i’m going to point you to
him by being a representation of his
love and his truth and i love it so much
that jesus
look i’m not even eloquently jesus has
the balance of truth and grace right
because sometimes we can say yes i can
speak the truth about maybe the way your
lifestyle doesn’t match up with the word
of the lord but there is also the grace
that follows it to say you know what
you’re on a journey and i may not
understand your journey because i’m not
the one that created you but it is my
job and it is my role to love you and
it’s my role to point you to jesus some
of my closest friends today are people
who literally felt like they didn’t have
a place in the kingdom of god they
didn’t have a place in relationship with
god simply because they felt like they
were condemned a lot based on their
lifestyles and it’s so crazy the power
of just letting someone know not only
are you loved by god but you are also
loved by me that you don’t have to
change for me to love you that’s the
work of the holy spirit and one of the
things that the lord began to highlight
to me so um just really greatly was the
case of the lepers in the scripture and
that we as a church should not be
aligned with the kingdom of darkness to
bring people to this place of feeling
like because everyone else rejects me
maybe the lord rejects me too we see
this particular story in matthew that
there was a leper that went to jesus and
he said lord if you’re willing cleanse
me it was not that lord i’m not sure if
you have the power i recognize that
you’re all powerful and i recognize that
you do this for other people but i’m a
leper society calls me an outcast and
somehow i’ve seen how they treat me to
think that maybe this is how you’re
going to treat me so if you’re willing
then you would do this for me and jesus
first of all touches him he does a thing
that you’re not even supposed to do with
lepers and then he says i am willing and
this is who we are called to be as a
body this is who we are called to be as
believers and this is how we create safe
spaces when we say i see you the way the
lord sees you you are his shape you are
loved and i will let the holy spirit do
that work of transformation
most definitely i love that you said
that all of this messiness was being
called
gods god was claiming all of the
messiness because i think we create this
false dichotomy between
the lost and those who know jesus as
like the broken and the perfect the
messy and the organized you know like
for some reason outside the church door
is chaos like walk through the church
doors suddenly everything’s fine and
anyone i’ll use this example it’s like
getting married right one day we’re not
married then we speak about 50 words we
promise to do something for the rest of
our lives we form this relationship and
then all of a sudden at that moment
we’re supposed to know how to be married
we’re never supposed to have a fight
we’re never supposed to have a problem
when we become the bride of christ we
still got to grow
some growing to do there’s a learning
curve that’s still there and i think we
make it unsafe for people because
there’s this expectation that of the
before and after salvation moment
where the after is just going to be
everything’s fine and there’s no
messiness here and so then when people
find themselves struggling
there’s a shame associated with it
because we haven’t made space for people
to safely address the growth healing
learning curve
that this life with jesus is
you know when we come to jesus our
spirits are changed instantly but then
our minds have to be renewed every part
of our lives have to be renewed and not
just once god continues to renew us over
and over again you know i think as as
believers and as leaders in the church
or people who have been
walking as christians for a long time i
know for me when i really focus on
being like him
then the only time i have left really to
do anything is just to love i i have
time to love people where they are
because
when you’ve walked with the lord you
know where you’ve come from
and it’s so important there’s so many
scriptures in the bible that tells you
to remember not to forget you know and
and the thing is it’s so important to
understand that
like she said when you come into christ
you’re a baby
you’re a new creation old things are
past all things are new but the new
things you have to learn how to do you
have to learn how to walk how to talk
and it’s really a beautiful
transition it’s a beautiful transforming
uh
thing to see when people come to jesus i
love to see non-believers people who
don’t know anything about christ come to
him and then begin to walk it out but
you and when you have patience and when
you have love then people are
are they feel good about
the growth that they’re experiencing and
i think it is so crucial that when
people come to jesus when they come to
the house of the lord that they feel
welcome they feel to they feel welcome
to be
who they are right where they are
because it takes time it’s funny i was
having a conversation with a friend
recently and
you know yesterday we talked about
having hard conversations and she and i
were
we were thankfully we have the type of
relationship that we could have the hard
conversations and um
there was a person a black person
unarmed they were killed by police and
we were having this conversation and
she said well you know
they shouldn’t have resisted arrest
and i said to her i said well you know
was that a capital crime
and she said well no but you know
they probably did something wrong and uh
this is a friend of mine who
is very much so you know pro-life and i
said to her i said i said well help me
understand in your mind you know what it
means to advocate for the the innocent
right the babies who have never done
anything wrong uh and then you look at
someone who is killed for something
that’s not a capital crime like how do
we weigh the two and she said to me she
said yeah but they’re they’re innocent
they’re innocent and i said to her i
said what if jesus viewed us that way
i mean imagine like where would we be
if the grace of god only extended to
those who had never done anything wrong
we would all
be lost and i think that is what keeps
me grounded it keeps me grounded when i
when i both see and do wrong
i reflect on the fact
that the grace of god is the only reason
why my eternal life is secure not
because i’ve done everything right at
all as a matter of fact the word of god
tells us that he loved us so deeply that
he died for us
while we were sinners not when we had it
all together like no like we’re
literally in the act there you go and
he’s like you’re still worth dying
and i think about that not like lord who
am i
to judge anybody for anything right um
how how can i put myself on a pedestal
to be like oh now that is unforgivable
like i can’t get with that
i just thank god for his grace and i
think when we have that mindset
um we will never look down on anybody
else because let me tell you something
if we had uh some sort of a i’mma call
it a sin ray so you got an x-ray
man
you could just see
me and my skin you would be like now
she’ll need to be able to better
together now
yeah get it together come on but you
said
the story that we all love you said
caught in the act the woman that was
caught in adultery i mean yes what
greater example jesus just wrote and
it’s like okay let me let me get out of
here
the sin and the sin uh detected what’s
happening you know and and if we just
live like that i think you’re so
grateful to
be forgiven first of all you live a life
of so much gratitude that you’re so
you’re ready to forgive you’re ready to
cover the bible says love covers a
multitude of sins yes a multitude of sin
so sinners should they should really
feel i mean now the word of god convicts
so they’re going to be a little
uncomfortable
but it shouldn’t
but it let it be the word of god let it
be the spirit of god but they should
never feel unloved or or shamed
or guilt that should never come with us
i think one of the ways to disrupt the
cycle of shame that we see in our
families and our communities and in our
churches is for us to be
honest about where we’ve been
and honest about what jesus has saved us
from because i think a a reason why this
narrative of you have to be perfect you
have to be everything right and if
you’re not perfect you’re not welcome
here is just perpetuated throughout our
communities it’s because some of us have
spent a long time trying to come off
like we’ve got it all together to curate
a lifestyle that is flawless or perfect
or not just on social media but in real
life and if we are not honest about what
jesus has really
saved us from if we’re not honest about
what jesus has really redeemed us from
then of course people in our communities
don’t know that they’re all so welcome
of course people in our communities
don’t know how jesus
can actually interact in their real
lives and i think one of the ways that
i’ve been set free from guilt
and shame from ways that i’ve lived and
lies that i’ve believed is by hearing
other people
on stages and at dinner tables tell me
about the lies they’ve believed
and some of the shame they’ve had and
some of the guilt they’ve had and and
how they’ve been set free from that and
now i’m hearing someone talk about
something that i’m like i’ve never said
that out loud before and this person is
just being very honest i’ve lived this
way jesus set me free from that i’ve
lived this way i believe that lie jesus
set me free from that and i think that
when you hear someone else sharing your
story
when you hear that jesus has redeemed
someone like you you know it takes it
takes the shame off of you it takes this
this guilt off of you this wall
um
it helps take it down a little bit and
you’re realizing that jesus could
probably
forgive me too
for that so i think a way to help people
not feel shame
when they’re walking into our churches
or entering our communities is for us to
be honest about who we are and what
we’re struggling with and what god has
saved us from to reveal the truth about
who jesus is and who he has been through
our real lives
i think we could also be healthier as a
church and creating these safe spaces if
we make sure that inside the church
we’re not using shame and guilt as tools
of discipleship
we talked about discipleship earlier
this week and i think that’s something
critical that i’ve often encountered in
counseling both as pastoral counseling
and professional counseling is that in
an effort to get our young people to
live correctly yeah we sometimes use
shame and fear
about what they should not do whether
it’s making someone feel like they will
be worthless to god if they aren’t
sexually pure or making someone feel
like they will be worthless to god if
they use the substance or anything and
so we’re just using
almost it’s almost like bad parenting
skills i have worked really hard not a
perfect parent but i’ve worked really
hard to instill in my children that
their love relationship with god
should inspire them the bible says if
you love me
you’ll keep my commandments didn’t say
if you were terrified of me didn’t say
if you were shamed by me he said if you
love me and so i’ve always tried to
present this idea that every
relationship has boundaries and if
you’re in love with jesus then there are
some boundaries on the things that you
will or will not do but too often it’s
been presented as fear and shame and so
people as christians are afraid
to admit when they’ve had some messiness
it’s not safe for christians to say
hey i have this going on because shame
has been so instilled and if we use
shame as a tool of discipleship then
that’s all that a christian has then
that’s what we’ll give yeah when other
people show up we’ll give what we have
which is fear and shame so i want to
just encourage people if you were
discipled using those tools
with all good intentions i’m sure to try
and help you to live a holy life but had
some some bad side effects
that one god can heal you from that and
you don’t have to perpetuate it to the
people that you disciple that if we love
him
we keep his commandments let’s
perpetuate that kind of love
and i think it really echoes um even
hosanna’s statement on the the power of
the testimony because i think that
there’s sometimes i’ve heard when people
will have something going wrong in their
life and the first thing they would say
is like oh my gosh maybe this is
punishment because of this thing that i
did so again that shame and guilt
becoming the measure in which you feel
like okay this is not happening because
i messed up yesterday i didn’t do the
god thing yesterday and that scripture
if you love me you keep my commandments
it’s so powerful because then keeping
the commandments becomes the organic
response to a love relationship with
jesus and so testimonies it’s i think
it’s everything because when i think
about the testimony other people’s
testimonies that i’ve heard that made me
feel like oh you know i’m not that crazy
when i look at my life and being able to
tell people like hey i’ve had some
messiness in my past but the hand of god
was actually still on me and he still
blessed me so i’m not trying to scare
you into a life of like oh if you don’t
get this right then you’re gonna perish
on the earth because we see how people
can be living very oft and things are
happening for them so it’s to even go
beyond the layer of you know the idea of
being blessed but to say look
relationship with jesus is deeper than
that you want this thing it’s not just
about like what good things come to me
you know bad vibes stay away from me
it’s it’s bigger than that because i’ve
seen even like in the younger generation
and they would say things like you know
some of the artists i love they’re
living the lifestyle i want to live and
they’re nowhere close to jesus
and so if we measure this idea of
success by not you know living the life
of you know that that kind of
disqualifies you from the grace but
telling them like look relationship is
much deeper you want jesus in your life
you need him to give you direction about
who you are you need him the peace that
comes from him is nothing that you can
buy and so when people see the value in
a love relationship with jesus not a
watered-down concept on riches and all
that stuff but the value of what is
eternal then it becomes desired and it’s
like oh my gosh i want to change for
this person
i’ve always been intrigued by the fact
that after adam and eve ate the
forbidden fruit they immediately covered
themselves and i’ve always been
intrigued by that because in my mind i’m
like
where did they even get the idea
for clothes right like there was no zara
there was no jc penny
like what led them to to come to the
conclusion that the natural response to
doing the wrong thing
is to cover up like where’d that even
come from and i think we continue to do
that and i read a book many years ago
by brene brown which was really powerful
she she defined guilt and shame in a way
that i had never heard before and she
said guilt
is about uh the mistake that i make it’s
about what i did whereas shame is about
how i see myself because of what i did
it’s about identity and that’s been
powerful to me
and that’s part of the reason why you
know as a minister in in the business
world when i do speak in business
context that have no type of ministry uh
link at all i always talk about jesus
because he is the one who delivered me
from the shame of my past and what’s
been interesting
is every time i tell my story every
single time i tell my story people come
up to me afterward and they say
that happened to me too and i’ve never
told anyone
and i think to myself you have people
in leadership positions consequential
leadership positions who are leading
from a place of shame and a lot of times
shame can become the fuel that actually
drives you to succeed going back to your
point stephanie there are many people
who have achieved great things but
they’ve achieved it because they’re
trying to create a new identity yeah and
that new identity is apart from who
christ has said they are whether they
have a credential whether they have a
degree no matter what they do they
already are amazing but they don’t know
that and so it becomes performative and
so this idea of i’m gonna cover up and
i’m gonna get this title and i’m gonna
get this position because i don’t want
to associate with how i really see
myself which is i see myself as damaged
goods but we know that we are set free
we are set free from whoever the enemy
has said that we are we we are new
creatures in christ jesus i love that
you know i was going to bring up the
garden of eden as well um
adam and eve when they sin they ran they
hide
and hid um but but i wanted to bring up
the father because stephanie was talking
about the love of god
and
he kept looking for him he never changed
his mind about them amen not only did he
look for him
you know but so because he still wanted
to be in relationship they even found
the clothes he found the czar
[Laughter]
he made them
[Laughter]
and it just shows you how much he loves
us and his love never his sin
changes our perspective of him not his
perspective of us
yeah and it messes us up and i think
going back to what anita said a lot of
times i know
when i was growing up they taught on
hell a lot you know yeah
i didn’t really find out about the love
of god until later i was determined that
i was going to live right because i
wasn’t going to hell
but when you understand the love of god
shame just melts away
yes you know but as unbelievers new
people they don’t know that’s why it’s
up to us to really show
and reveal the love of god
because god
he lo while we were still sinners he
died for us
so it doesn’t matter what you’ve done it
doesn’t matter what kind of past you
have
there’s nothing stronger than the love
of god and god loves you so much and
your value is still intact you’re still
valuable to him you know and i think
when we look at his character you know i
just love that he where
where are you guys at adam what happened
what’s going on let’s you know we used
to hang out together but but sin will
will make will bring the shame
and and and cause you to run and god is
saying i’m still in love with you
i’m thinking about the scripture when it
says perfect love cast out all fear and
fear has many expressions fear can be
expressed through shame and guilt but
there’s something about embracing the
perfect love of the father that casts
out all of that and so in this moment i
want to pray for everyone watching and
maybe you’re you’re in that place where
you’re struggling with shame you’re
struggling with guilt and you’re not
here embracing that god loves you that
right where you are he still calls you
my sheep that he sees all the messiness
and he said you belong to me i love you
i’m for you and i’m after you and so
let’s just pray heavenly father i thank
you so much for your children that are
watching this right now i thank you lord
that they will just be just overwhelmed
by your love by your goodness and by
your joy i thank you lord god that even
for those that have been struggling with
shame and guilt oh god that they would
know that your love still looks at them
and says you belong to me i got you i’m
here for you and it’s through me that
we’re gonna come out of all of this and
so lord may they embrace you and
relinquish everything that causes them
to just diminish who they are and the
value of their worthiness in you and so
lord god i thank you for that beautiful
trade right now that exchange that is
happening then lord for everything that
i have the narrative i’ve spoken to
myself that i’m not good enough i’m not
worthy that they’re releasing that right
now and they’re receiving identity
they’re receiving knowing that they
belong to you they’re receiving your
love and your goodness thank you lord
jesus amen at tbn our mission is to use
every available means to reach as many
individuals and families as possible
with the life-changing gospel of jesus
christ thank you for helping
make
the gospel of grace go around the world
without you we couldn’t do it god bless
you
[Music]