What tough questions are on your mind these days? Chances are, we talked through at least one of them in this episode. So many of you sent in such good amazing, meaningful questions for us to answer that we decided to call in reinforcements: Joyce and the lovely Lisa Harper!
GINGER: AS I READ THESE
QUESTIONS, THERE’S SO MUCH
PAIN IN THESE QUESTIONS.
AND SO, GOD KNOWS THAT IT’S
NOT SOMETHING AS SURFACE-Y,
AS THIS ONE VERSE.
SO MUCH MORE OF IT IS KNOWING
THE HEART OF GOD FOR OUR PAIN.
HI FRIENDS.
WELCOME TO JOYCE MEYER’S
TALK IT OUT PODCAST,
WHERE MY FRIENDS AND I TALK
ABOUT GOD’S WORD
AND THE REAL STUFF OF LIFE,
AND WE HOLD NOTHING BACK.
I’M GINGER STACHE,
WITH ERIN CLULEY, JAI,
AND OF COURSE, JOYCE MEYER.
WE’RE ALL IN DIFFERENT
STAGES OF LIFE.
A YOUNG CAREER WOMAN,
AND MOM TO TWO SWEET KIDDOS.
AN ACCOMPLISHED SONGWRITER
FACING AN UNEXPECTED,
NEW LIFE’S JOURNEY.
A LEADER, CREATIVE, AN AUTHOR
WITH A HEART FOR ADVENTURE.
AND A WORLD-RENOWNED,
BIBLE TEACHER WHOSE PERSONAL
STORY HAS IMPACTED MILLIONS.
AND THERE’S YOU,
BECAUSE SOMETIMES,
YOU JUST NEED TO TALK ABOUT
LIFE WITH YOUR GIRLFRIENDS.
SO, CONSIDER YOURSELF ONE
OF US AND LET’S TALK IT OUT.
HEY FRIENDS, YOU ARE GONNA
WANT TO RUSH RIGHT INTO THIS
ROOM BECAUSE THIS IS QUITE
A GROUP OF FRIENDS
AND YOU’RE ONE OF US.
WE’RE GONNA HAVE SO MUCH FUN.
TODAY, WE ARE ANSWERING
LIFE’S HARD QUESTIONS
TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY.
GOD’S GONNA HELP US.
THAT’S THE WHOLE POINT.
BUT THESE ARE THINGS THAT
WE ALL ASK.
WE’VE GOT JOYCE, AND JAI,
AND ERIN, AND WE HAVE
LISA HARPER WITH US.
LADIES: YAY!
LISA: SO HAPPY TO BE HERE.
THANK YOU ALL.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
GINGER: YOU KNOW, WE STARTED
THINKING, “OKAY, IF WE’RE
GONNA HAVE LISA HARPER
AND JOYCE TOGETHER,
WE’RE GONNA ASK…
LISA: LISA HARPER
IS GONNA BE MUTE.
IS WHAT’S GONNA HAPPEN.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
GINGER: WE’RE GONNA
THE ASK BIG QUESTIONS.
SO, WE GOT ALL OF THESE FROM
SOCIAL MEDIA.
SO, YOU HAVE ASKED THESE
QUESTIONS AND THEY’RE
THE ONES THAT YOU WOULD EXPECT.
THEY’RE THE THINGS THAT WE
STRUGGLE AND GRAPPLE WITH,
IN LIFE.
SO, BEFORE WE–LIKE, START
EVEN WITH THE FIRST QUESTION,
LET ME ASK YOU–THIGHS–ASK
YOU THOUGHTS–LET’S NOT TALK
ABOUT THIGHS.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
JOYCE: TALK ABOUT THIGHS?
JAI: WE WERE JUST TALKING
ABOUT STRETCHY PANTS BEFORE.
GINGER: WE WERE.
WE WERE.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
GINGER: ASK YOU GUYS–THAT’S
THE INDIANA IN ME, COMING OUT,
CALLING EVERYBODY, “YOU GUYS.”
A LITTLE BIT ABOUT
THE FOUNDATION OF WHAT
WE’RE GONNA BE TALKING ABOUT
BECAUSE AS WE’RE LOOKING
AT THESE QUESTIONS, THE FIRST
THING, I THINK, WE HAVE
TO UNDERSTAND IS: WHERE
DO YOU EVEN BEGIN TO LOOK
FOR ANSWERS FOR THINGS
THIS LARGE?
WHERE ARE WE GONNA FIND
THIS KINDA STUFF?
JOYCE: WELL, I THINK
THE WORD OF GOD REALLY
HAS THE ANSWER TO EVERY
QUESTION IN LIFE.
IT’S JUST A MATTER OF KNOWING
WHERE TO FIND ‘EM.
AND SOMETIMES, KNOWING HOW
TO PUT THINGS TOGETHER.
YOU KNOW, YOU CAN’T ALWAYS
GET AN ANSWER JUST PULLING
ONE SCRIPTURE OUT.
ACTUALLY, YOU CAN GET
THE BIBLE TO SAY ALMOST
ANYTHING IF YOU DO THAT.
LISA: YOU SURE CAN.
JOYCE: SO, YOU HAVE
TO INTERPRET THE WORD OF GOD
IN LIGHT OF THE WORD.
BUT I ALSO THINK THAT THE MORE
EXPERIENCE YOU HAVE WITH GOD,
THE MORE YOU LEARN
TO UNDERSTAND THINGS.
I LIKE TO SAY, “WE LIVE LIFE
FORWARD, BUT WE UNDERSTAND
IT BACKWARD.”
THERE’S SO MANY THINGS WHEN
I’M GOING THROUGH THEM,
THAT I DON’T UNDERSTAND.
THEY DON’T MAKE SENSE.
AND I WAS READING A BOOK THIS
MORNING, THE TEACHING WAS
ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT
IT IS TO KEEP BELIEVING.
THAT WE GO THROUGH SO MANY
THINGS IN LIFE THAT WE DON’T
UNDERSTAND THAT SEEM UNFAIR,
THAT DON’T SEEM TO MAKE
ANY SENSE.
AND HE ACTUALLY,
SAID SOMETHING THAT I THOUGHT
WAS PRETTY STRONG.
HE SAID, “ACTUALLY UNBELIEF
IS THE WORST SIN.”
THAT GOD, ABOVE ALL ELSE,
WANTS US TO BELIEVE HIM.
AND SO MANY PEOPLE,
THEY BELIEVE UNTIL THEY HAVE
TO APPLY IT, AND THEN THEY
DON’T BELIEVE ANYMORE.
AND WE’RE GONNA TRY TO ANSWER,
HARD TO ANSWER QUESTIONS,
BUT TO BE HONEST,
GOD LOVES A GOOD MYSTERY.
ERIN: HE SURE DOES.
GINGER: THAT’S A GREAT WAY
TO PUT IT.
JOYCE: AND IF YOU DON’T
LIKE MYSTERY, YOU’RE NOT
GONNA LIKE HANGING OUT WITH
GOD, BECAUSE THERE’S JUST
A LOT OF THINGS THAT WE GO
THROUGH IN LIFE THAT WE DON’T
UNDERSTAND, AND WON’T
UNDERSTAND, UNTIL WE GET
TO HEAVEN WHERE WE’RE GONNA
KNOW EVERYTHING HE KNOWS.
AND SO, WE’RE GONNA
DO OUR BEST HERE.
LISA: I LOVE THAT YOU
EMPHASIZED THAT, MS. JOYCE.
I WAS READING, PACKER–
J.I. PACKER, RECENTLY.
AND HE SAID THAT ONE OF THE–
“ONE OF THE GRIEFS OF MODERN
SOCIETY IS WE’VE CEASED
TO BE AWED BY GOD.”
YOU KNOW, WE’VE MADE
HIM A COPILOT.
HE’S NOT A COPILOT.
HE’S CREATOR, REDEEMER.
BUT HE SAID, “IF YOU DON’T
HAVE A SENSE OF WONDER,
THEN YOU NEED TO BE REVIVED.”
THERE SHOULD BE A LITTLE BIT
OF SHOCK AND AWE.
I DON’T WANT A PERFECTLY
KNOWABLE GOD.
I WANNA CLOSE GOD.
BUT IF I–MY DINKY MIND CAN
FULLY COMPREHEND GOD,
THAT’S A SMALL GOD.
I WANNA GOD THAT’S BIGGER
THAN ME AND MY CIRCUMSTANCES.
JOYCE: WELL,
IF WE UNDERSTOOD EVERYTHING,
WE WOULDN’T EVEN GOD.
LISA: THAT’S RIGHT.
THAT’S EXACTLY RIGHT.
JOYCE: WE NEED HIM
FOR THE TIMES WHEN NOTHING
MAKES ANY SENSE, AND NOTHING
SEEMS TO FIT TOGETHER.
BUT THAT’S WHERE YOUR
FAITH IS TESTED.
THERE’S SO MANY
THINGS THAT WE THINK,
WE BELIEVE, AND WE THINK,
WE’VE GOT SO MUCH FAITH,
WE THINK WE’RE SO STRONG.
BUT I DON’T THINK ANY OF US
REALLY TRULY KNOW EVEN
OURSELVES UNTIL WE’RE TESTED.
LISA: RIGHT, I AGREE.
JOYCE: SO, A LOT
OF THE TESTS THAT WE GO THROUGH,
ARE TO HELP YOU MEET YOURSELF
AND SEE WHERE YOUR
WEAKNESSES ARE.
SO, YOU CAN THEN, WORK WITH
THE HOLY SPIRIT TO GET
STRENGTHENED IN THOSE AREAS.
JAI: SOME OF THE BIGGEST
QUESTIONS I’VE HAD,
ESPECIALLY, THESE PAST COUPLE
OF YEARS, THOSE HAVE BEEN
THE THINGS THAT I’VE STRUGGLED
WITH THE MOST IS MAINTAINING
MY BELIEF THAT I’VE KNOWN
MY ENTIRE LIFE.
BUT ALSO, THE OTHER THING
YOU SAID, LIKE THE ANSWERS
ARE IN THE WORD.
BUT SOMETIMES, TO ME, AND
THIS COULD BE MY IMMATURITY,
YOU KNOW, I GOT THAT.
BUT–I ALMOST FELT LIKE THAT
WAS ALMOST TOO SIMPLE
OF AN ANSWER FOR THE GRAVITY
OF THE PRESSURE I WAS FEELING,
FROM THE PRESSURE, YOU KNOW,
FROM THE–FROM THE DEEP,
DEEP QUESTIONS THAT I HAD.
LIKE, IT’S LIKE–I ALMOST
FELT LIKE–WHICH HAS, ALMOST
NOT DELAYED MY HEALING
PROCESS, BUT IT’S DEFINITELY
MADE IT, YOU KNOW,
A LITTLE TURBULENT.
BECAUSE–I JUST LIKE–IT’S
GOTTA BE SOMETHING MORE
THAN JUST THIS.
THIS FEE–WE WERE TALKING
ABOUT IT EARLIER WITH
ALL THE BIBLE STORIES,
JOB, AND YOU KNOW.
LIKE, IT’S LIKE, I DON’T WANNA
GO TO THAT RIGHT NOW.
LIKE, IT SEEMS TOO SIMPLE
AND TOO EASILY.
SO, I CAN UNDERSTAND HOW
PEOPLE STILL HAVE QUESTIONS,
ESPECIALLY NOW, LIKE GOING
THROUGH SUCH A HARD FEW
YEARS, YOU KNOW, LIKE–
LISA: GLOBALLY AND
NATIONALLY AND PERSONALLY.
JAI, THOUGH, WHAT YOU SAID,
I THINK, IS SO PROFOUND, WHEN
YOU SAID, “SOMETIMES IT SEEMS
TOO SIMPLE,” I THINK, IF I’M
HEARING YOU RIGHT, ‘CUZ I’VE
BEEN BLINDED BY YOUR COOL
PANTS, CAMO PANTS.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
LISA: BUT SOMETIMES,
PEOPLE TRY TO MAKE IT SIMPLE.
IT’S LIKE, “OH, ROMANS 8:28–”
JAI: YES.
LISA: AND THEY’LL TAKE
ONE VERSE.
WELL, ROMANS 8:28 IS FABULOUS
THAT, “GOD WILL WORK
TOGETHER, ALL THINGS FOR OUR
GOOD IF YOU KNOW HIM
AND HIS GLORY.”
BUT THEY MISS THE BEGINNING
OF ROMANS 8, WHICH IS,
“WE WILL GROAN INWARDLY,
AS WE WAIT EAGERLY.”
IF YOU DON’T GET THAT–WHAT
JOYCE SAID EARLIER, YOU HAVE
TO–SCRIPTURE HAS
TO ANSWER SCRIPTURE.
IF SOMEBODY JUST CUTS
AND PASTES ONE VERSE, OR THEY
GIVE YOU–THROW UP ONE
MEME ON SOCIAL MEDIA, THEY
CAN TAKE THAT OUT OF CONTEXT,
AND IT DOES SEEM TRITE.
JAI: EXACTLY, I THINK
THAT’S WHAT IT IS.
LISA: IT’S LIKE, “Y’ALL
JUST CROSS STITCH THAT
AND HUNG IT ON YOUR WALL,
BUT I’M ACTUALLY DEALING WITH
SOMETHING SERIOUS, HERE.”
YOU GO TO ALL
OF DIVINE NARRATIVE.
ALL OF IT, IS THESE STORIES
OF PEOPLE WHO ARE FINDING
GOD IN THE MIDST OF REALLY
TOUGH STUFF.
IT’S NOT JUST ONE SIMPLE,
“OKAY, HERE YOU GO.
NOW, WE’RE DONE.”
AND I THINK THAT’S WHERE
SOMETIMES WE GO, “THAT SEEMS
TOO SIMPLE.”
YOU’RE NOT REALLY SAYING,
“GOD’S WORD IS SIMPLE.”
YOU’RE SAYING, “WHEN
SOMEBODY HAS TRIED TO CUT
AND PASTE A VERSE AND SAY,
‘DON’T STRUGGLE ANYMORE,’
THEN IT SEEMS TRITE.”
JAI: IT’S THE SPIRITUAL
BYPASSING THAT A LOT
OF CHRISTIANS HAVE DONE TO TRY
TO BAND-AID, AND CAUSE PEOPLE
TO MOVE SO QUICKLY PAST
WHATEVER THEY’RE
DEALING WITH.
YOU KNOW, I’M NOT–
I’M DEFINITELY NOT WANTING
TO STAY WHERE I AM.
BUT I DO WANNA HEAL
THE PROPER WAY AND GET
THE ANSWERS THAT I NEED.
SO, THAT’S EXACTLY IT.
LISA: YOU CHANGED–
GINGER: AND ALMOST A–
LISA: SORRY.
GINGER: NO, JUST ALMOST
GUILT THAT GOES ALONG WITH IT.
IT’S LIKE, “IF YOU DON’T
ALREADY UNDERSTAND THIS
VERSE AND WHAT GOD IS,
HOW ARE YOU STILL ASKING
THAT QUESTION?”
SO, AS WE’RE DOING THESE–
AS I READ THESE QUESTIONS,
THERE’S SO PAIN IN THESE
QUESTIONS.
AND SO, IT–
GOD KNOWS THAT IT’S NOT
SOMETHING AS SURFACE-Y,
AS THIS ONE VERSE.
SO MUCH MORE OF IT AS KNOWING
THE HEART OF GOD
FOR OUR PAIN.
LISA: THAT’S RIGHT.
GINGER: SO, WHAT WERE
YOU GONNA SAY, ERIN?
ERIN: I WAS JUST GONNA
SAY I WAS READING
HEBREWS YESTERDAY,
AND IT’S SO AMAZING.
AS WE TALK ABOUT LIKE
THE POWER OF GOD
THAT’S IN THERE,
AND THE ANSWERS,
I’VE READ THIS BEFORE,
BUT READING IT YESTERDAY,
IT STRUCK ME IN A WHOLE NEW WAY.
BUT HOW WE HAVE THE GOD
WHO CREATED EVERYTHING,
HIS SON WAS SENT
TO LIVE LIKE US,
AND HE HAD PAIN
AND HURT AND STRUGGLE.
AND SO, HE IS EMPATHETIC
TOWARDS US BECAUSE
HE KNOWS IT.
SO, IT’S NOT JUST, “GO READ
THAT VERSE BECAUSE IT SOUNDS
REALLY NICE ON THAT WALL
HANGING AND IT LOOKS
PRETTY IN MY LIVING ROOM.”
IT’S BECAUSE JESUS WALKED
ON THIS EARTH WITH
US AND HE WALKED IT OUT,
SO HE EMPATHIZES WITH US.
AND SO, IT DOESN’T MEAN
ALL YOUR ANSWERS
ARE GONNA BE EASY.
WE DON’T GET ALL THOSE.
BUT IT’S NOT THAT
WE ARE LEFT ALONE.
GINGER: RIGHT.
LISA: I LOVE THAT
THE AUTHOR OF HEBREWS
SAID JESUS WAS MADE–
WAS PREPARED FOR THE CROSS.
HE WAS PERFECTED
FOR THE CROSS THROUGH
PAIN AND SUFFERING.
AND SO, GOD EVEN
USED PAIN AND SUFFERING
WITH HIS OWN SON,
INCARNATE MESSIAH,
IT WASN’T ALL LIKE,
ALL HUNKY-DORY FOR HIM.
JOYCE: THOSE ARE SOME
OF MY FAVORITE VERSUS.
HEBREWS 5:8 AND 9,
BECAUSE IT SAYS…
LISA: ME TOO.
I LOVE HEBREWS.
JOYCE: HE GAINED
THE “EQUIPMENT–”
THE AMPLIFIED SAYS,
THAT HE NEEDED
TO BE “THE AUTHOR,”
OF OUR SALVATION.
ERIN: OH, THAT’S SO GOOD.
GINGER: THAT TAKES A–
JOYCE: AND THE EXPERIENCE.
THE EXPERIENCE
AND THE EQUIPMENT.
AND YOU KNOW,
WHEN I LOOK BACK,
MOST OF MY PAIN
WAS JUST GROWING UP.
IT WAS JUST LEARNING
HOW TO APPLY THE WORD
AND NOT LET MY EMOTIONS
CONTROL ME AND NOT LIVE
OUT OF MY OWN MIND.
AND I THINK–BEFORE WE START
ANSWERING THESE QUESTIONS,
I WANNA SAY, I THINK IT’S FINE
TO ASK QUESTIONS.
BUT YOU’RE NOT GONNA
GET THE ANSWER TO EVERY
QUESTION THAT YOU ASK.
AND SOMETIMES, I THINK,
WHAT GOD WANTS TO HEAR IS,
“I’D LOVE TO KNOW WHY,
BUT EVEN IF YOU DON’T TELL ME,
I TRUST YOU.”
LISA: RIGHT, RIGHT,
THAT’S THE END OF JOB.
JOYCE: BECAUSE THAT’S
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS,
“I TRUST YOU,
EVEN IF I NEVER KNOW WHY.”
LISA: “I WANT YOUR PRESENCE
MORE THAN I WANT AN ANSWER.”
GINGER: WELL, THAT LEADS
US RIGHT TO THE FIRST
QUESTION THAT WE’VE REALLY
ALREADY BEGUN ANSWERING,
AND IT PROBABLY IS THE ONE
THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE
THINKING ABOUT RIGHT AWAY.
IT’S: “WHY DO WE SUFFER
SO MUCH?”
SO, THOSE THINGS THAT WE’RE
TALKING ABOUT ARE GREAT
FOUNDATIONS, FOR ME.
CUZ IT’S VERY–MAYBE IRONIC’S
NOT THE WORD, BUT EVEN RIGHT
BEFORE WE STARTED DOING THIS,
I GOT SOME REALLY BAD NEWS
ABOUT SOMEONE THAT I LOVE,
WHO’S SUFFERING VERY MUCH,
AND WE DON’T KNOW
WHAT’S GOING TO HAPPEN.
AND SO, IT’S JUST THE WAY
GOD WORKS SO MUCH.
HE PREPARES OUR HEARTS,
SURROUND US WITH PEOPLE THAT
WE NEED WHEN WE HAVE THOSE,
“WHY,” QUESTIONS.
‘CAUSE I’VE TOLD
YOU THIS BEFORE,
I CAN BE A “WHY” PERSON.
IF I DON’T REALLY WATCH MYSELF,
I CAN BE A “WHY, GOD,”
AND I CAN BE ANGRY.
AND SO, INSTEAD, LEANING
ON THAT FACT THAT,
YOU JUST SAID,
THAT JESUS FELT THAT PAIN,
THAT I’M FEELING,
HE LOST PEOPLE THAT HE LOVED.
HE DID THINGS HE DIDN’T
WANT TO DO, ON THE SURFACE,
BUT HE DID IT TO PLEASE GOD.
SO, I’M GONNA THROW
THIS OUT THERE.
WE’VE ALREADY BEGUN TALKING
ABOUT IT, BUT HOW DO YOU
RESPOND TO THE QUESTION
ABOUT SUFFERING.
JOYCE: WELL,
ONE OF THE REASONS WHY
WE SUFFER SO MUCH–
AND I HOPE PEOPLE CAN
GRASP THIS, ‘CAUSE I WENT
THROUGH IT; IS WE FIGHT
THE SUFFERING RATHER
THAN EMBRACING IT.
GINGER: THAT DOESN’T
SOUND LIKE FUN THOUGH.
JAI: IT DOESN’T.
JOYCE: WELL, BUT IT DOES
MAKE IT EASIER.
BECAUSE IF YOU TRUST GOD,
YOU BELIEVE THAT HE’S DOING
SOMETHING GOOD WITH IT.
LISA: THAT’S RIGHT.
JOYCE: THAT’S WHY IT SAYS,
“TO COUNT IT ALL JOY,”
DOESN’T SAY IT FEELS JOYFUL.
BUT YOU CONSIDER
THAT IT’S GONNA WORK
SOMETHING GOOD IN YOU.
AND SO, THE MORE YOU
FIGHT SOMETHING,
IT’S LIKE A PERSON DROWNING,
THE MORE THEY FIGHT YOU,
THE LESS LIKELY THEY
ARE TO BE SAVED.
AND SO, IF THEY CAN RELAX,
YOU CAN MAYBE,
GET ‘EM TO SHORE.
AND WE ALL START
FIGHTING OUR SUFFERING.
BUT WHEN YOU CAN LEARN
TO JUST EMBRACE IT,
AND BELIEVE THAT GOD IS GONNA
DO SOMETHING GOOD OUT OF IT,
IT ACTUALLY, REALLY MAKES
IT SO MUCH EASIER.
LISA: IT GOES BACK
TO WHAT YOU SAID
AT THE TOP OF THE PODCAST,
MS. JOYCE, WHEN YOU SAID
REALLY UNDERNEATH ALL
OF OUR STRIVING IS UNBELIEF.
AND I THINK IT’S ALSO
UNDERNEATH THAT
IS THE LACK OF UNDERSTANDING,
OR BELIEF, THAT GOD IS GOOD.
THAT ULTIMATELY,
HE’S A GOOD GOD.
SO, OF COURSE, THERE’S ALL
DIFFERENT KINDS OF SUFFERING.
WE SEE SUFFERING GOING
ON GLOBALLY, THAT IS THE RESULT
OF REALLY, WRONG DECISION.
AND THEN, YOU SEE SUFFERING,
WHAT YOU’RE GOING THROUGH
TODAY IS JUST, LIFE IS HARD.
JESUS SAYS, “IN THIS WORLD,
YOU WILL HAVE TROUBLE.”
THERE’S HARDSHIP.
THERE’S DEATH HERE.
DEATH WASN’T
IN THE ORIGINAL PLAN.
AND SO, SUFFERING CAN
BE THE RESULT OF SIN.
IT CAN BE THE RESULT
OF THE FALL.
BUT IF YOU BELIEVE OUR
GOD IS GOOD AND ULTIMATELY,
SOMEHOW, SOME WAY
HE WILL WORK THIS
OUT FOR OUR GOOD,
YOU ALSO BELIEVE
WHAT HE SAID IN JOSEPH’S LIFE,
“WHAT MAN INTENDED FOR EVIL,
GOD WILL REDEEM THAT,
AND USE FOR GOOD,”
THEN YOU GO, “OKAY, I MIGHT
NOT BE HAPPY ABOUT THIS.
I’M NOT SIGNING
UP FOR SUFFERING 102
AFTER SUFFERING 101,
BUT I DO BELIEVE
MY GOD IS GOOD.
SO EVEN IF I CAN’T
SEE AROUND THE CORNER
OF MY CIRCUMSTANCES–”
YOU KNOW, I WAS TELLING
Y’ALL EARLIER, I GOT REALLY
SICK DURING COVID,
AND IT LOOKED LIKE
I MIGHT MEET JESUS
FASTER THAN I THOUGHT
I WAS GONNA MEET JESUS.
AND THERE WAS KIND OF THIS
RECKONING MOMENT IN MY–
IN MY–I STARTED TO SAY HOTEL.
THAT’S FREUDIAN.
MY HOSPITAL ROOM, COMPLETELY
ALONE, WITH ME THINKING,
“I’M A SINGLE MOM.”
I’VE GOT AN 11-YEAR-OLD,
WHO LOST HER FIRST MAMA,
BIOLOGICALLY,
BEFORE I GOT TO ADOPT HER.
AND I FELT THIS GREAT PEACE,
FOR 45 SECONDS.
AND I THOUGHT, “OH, THIS
IS WHAT PEACE WITH GOD
FEELS LIKE, ‘ABSENT FROM
THE BODY PRESENT WITH JESUS.'”
AND THEN, I STARTED GOING,
“OH NO, NO, NO, NO, NO,
NO, LORD, THIS IS TOO SOON.
MISSY LOST HER FIRST MAMA.
YOU KNOW, MY HUSBAND IS LOST,
AND WON’T STOP TO ASK
FOR DIRECTIONS.
OH, THIS ISN’T GONNA
GO WELL, THIS IS–”
AND IN MY HOSPITAL ROOM,
I SENSED GOD, THROUGH
HIS SPIRIT, GO, “LISA, DO YOU
BELIEVE I’M A GOOD GOD?”
AND I HAD TO GO, “YES, SIR.”
IT’S JUST, I HAD FORGOTTEN.
I WANTED TO CONTROL MY LIFE.
AND I FORGET GOD DOESN’T
WORK IN TIME AND SPACE,
AS WE KNOW IT.
HE EXTENDS BEYOND THAT.
HE WILL WORK ALL THINGS
OUT FOR OUR GOOD.
GINGER: WHAT YOU DID WAS
MAKE A DECISION, ASIDE FROM
WHAT YOU WERE FEELING
AND ALL OF THE EMOTIONS THAT
YOU WERE DEALING WITH,
BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE.
AND THAT’S WHAT’S
REALLY HELPED ME,
AS I’VE HAD MORE EXPERIENCE
WITH GOD, AND A LOT OF HURTS
AND A LOT OF SUFFERING,
TO SEE, YES, DOWN THE ROAD,
I CAN TRUST WHAT
HE SAYS HE WILL DO.
IT DOESN’T MEAN I WON’T HURT
REALLY BAD ALONG THE WAY,
BUT HE WON’T LEAVE
ME IN THAT PLACE.
AND THAT’S HELPED A LOT.
JOYCE: I WAS RECENTLY,
REALLY STRUCK, BY THE FACT,
THAT JESUS, IN THE GARDEN,
PRAYED THREE TIMES
FOR THE SAME THING.
THREE SEPARATE TIMES HE WENT
AND SAID, “FATHER, IF POSSIBLE,
REMOVE THIS CUP FROM ME.”
SO, HE REALLY DID NOT WANNA
GO TO THE CROSS.
I DON’T KNOW.
FOR SOME REASON, IT JUST–
IT STRUCK ME.
HE REALLY, REALLY DID NOT
WANNA GO TO THE CROSS.
IT’S LIKE US,
WHEN WE REALLY DON’T
WANNA GO THROUGH SOMETHING.
AND HE KEPT SAYING,
“IF POSSIBLE,
DELIVER ME FROM THIS,
NEVERTHELESS, YOUR WILL
BE DONE AND NOT MINE.”
AND I THINK–I WANNA BE SURE,
I SAY THIS RIGHT.
I THINK, EVEN MORE THAN
NOT WANTING TO SUFFER,
WE HAVE TO WANT GOD’S WILL.
LISA: THAT’S RIGHT.
ERIN: THAT IS HARD.
THAT IS SO HARD.
LISA: THAT’S RIGHT.
JOYCE: MORE THAN
WE DON’T WANNA SUFFER,
WE HAVE TO WANT GOD’S WILL,
BECAUSE WE TRUST
THAT IF HE DOES ALLOW
US TO GO THROUGH A TIME
OF SUFFERING–THAT DOESN’T
MEAN GOD BROUGHT IT.
BUT I BELIEVE THAT
GOD USES THINGS.
I THINK EVEN I CAN
GET MYSELF IN TROUBLE,
THROUGH MAKING A BAD DECISION,
AND GOD MAY NOT GET
ME OUT OF IT RIGHT AWAY,
LIKE I’D LIKE HIM TO,
BUT HE DECIDES TO USE
IT TO TEACH ME SOMETHING
THAT I NEED TO KNOW.
AND SO, IF WE CAN WANT GOD’S
WILL MORE THAN WE EVEN DON’T
WANNA SUFFER–YOU KNOW,
I JUST–I KEEP FEELING
IMPRESSED TO SAY AGAIN,
THAT IT’S SO MUCH EASIER
WHEN YOU EMBRACE IT.
LISA: IT IS.
WELL, I LOVE THAT YOU
BROUGHT UP GETHSEMANE,
BECAUSE YOU THINK,
CHRIST, HIMSELF, THE MESSIAH,
WAS ABLE TO BE HEARD,
TO SAY, “I DON’T WANT THIS.
I DON’T WANNA SEE YOUR BACK.
I DON’T WANT TO FEEL
COMMUNION BETWEEN ME,
AND YOU CUT OFF.
I DON’T WANT THIS.”
BUT I THINK, OFTENTIMES,
IN CHRISTIAN CULTURE,
WE’RE LIKE, “OKAY,
YOU’RE A NEW CREATURE.
DON’T WHINE ANYMORE.”
AND IT’S LIKE,
“NO, GOD WILL HEAR YOU.”
AND I THINK, THAT’S ONE OF
THE THINGS WHEN SOMEBODY’S
SUFFERING, IS TO SAY,
“TAKE ALL THAT TO JESUS.
TAKE ALL THAT TO THE LORD.
AND GO, ‘THIS IS–THIS–
I FEEL LIKE THIS
IS ABOUT TO KILL ME.'”
AND WHAT WE’RE REALLY
GRIEVING IS TO BE COMPLETELY
ALONE AND TO FEEL
LIKE NOBODY CARES,
AND NOBODY’S GONNA HELP.
YOU GO TO THE LORD AND GO,
“OH, THE LORD HEARD ME.”
YOU KNOW, JOB, DIDN’T GET
A SINGLE QUESTION ANSWERED.
BUT AFTER GOD REVEALED
HIMSELF TO HIM,
IN THE FORM OF SPANKIN’.
ERIN: THAT’S MY FAVORITE
PART OF SCRIPTURE.
LISA: I MEAN, I LOVE IT.
AND HE SAYS–HE DOES
IT WITH SUCH KINDNESS.
THAT HE SAYS, “MY EARS HAD
HEARD OF YOU, BUT NOW–
BUT NOW, MY EYES HAVE SEEN YOU,”
AND NOTHING IS FIXED.
HE’S NOT RECONCILED
WITH HIS WIFE.
HE DOESN’T HAVE
HIS BUSINESS BACK.
HE DOESN’T HAVE MORE CHILDREN.
HE’S BASICALLY STILL
IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MESS
HE STARTED WITH, BUT HE SAYS,
“OH, NOW, THAT I’VE BEEN IN YOUR
PRESENCE, IT’S ENOUGH.”
AND I THINK IF IN SUFFERING
WE WOULD LEARN TO LEAN INTO
GOD IN THAT.
YOU KNOW, I’M 58, SIXTY’S
RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER.
WHICH MEANS I HAVE THE RIGHT
TO WEAR STRETCHY PANTS.
BUT–
[LADIES LAUGHING]
LISA: BUT ONE OF THE THINGS,
I LIKE ABOUT BEING A LITTLE
OLDER, IS I CAN LOOK BACK
OVER MY LIFE AND REALIZE,
I’VE NEVER BEEN
ABANDONED BY GOD.
HE HAS BEEN PRESENT.
I MIGHT NOT HAVE FELT HIM.
BUT HE’S BEEN SO KIND
AND SO REDEMPTIVE THAT
IT’S EASIER FOR ME TO TRUST
THE FUTURE NOW, ‘CAUSE I GO,
“OH, HE HAS NEVER FAILED ME.”
GINGER: EXPERIENCE.
LISA: AND I THINK THAT’S
PART OF LEANING INTO IT,
IS TO GO, “BOY, EVERY OTHER
SEASON THAT I GRIEVED,
OR I WAS HEARTBROKEN,
HE WAS SO NEAR TO ME.”
AND I COULD HAVE NEVER–
I COULDN’T HAVE DREAMT
THE REDEMPTION GOD HAS
WORKED IN MY LIFE.
SO, I DO THINK LEANING INTO
THE PROCESS, AS MS. JOYCE
IS SAYING, IS–NOT TO SAY
HAPPY, CLAPPY, “I LOVE THIS.”
YOU CAN GRIEVE AND SAY,
“I DON’T WANNA DO THIS,”
JUST LIKE JESUS DID,
“BUT I STILL TRUST YOU.”
GINGER: YOU KNOW,
WHEN I GOT THIS BAD NEWS TODAY,
AND JUST TEARS
STREAMING DOWN MY FACE
AND MY FRIENDS WERE PRAYING
FOR ME–SO, I APPRECIATE
THAT SO MUCH, JUST SO IMPORTANT
FOR US TO HAVE.
AND LISA, YOU SAID SOMETHING
THAT REALLY STRUCK ME.
AND IT’S NOT SOMETHING
THAT I WAS THINKING ABOUT
OR GRAPPLING WITH AT THE TIME,
BUT IT WAS LIKE, “WOW.
YES.”
AND YOU SAID THAT
OUR PAIN IS NOT PUNITIVE.
THAT IT’S NOT, LIKE,
YOU SAID, JOYCE, GOD ISN’T
THROWING PAIN AT US.
THAT IT’S NOT ALWAYS–I MEAN,
THERE ARE THINGS THAT
WE DO IN OUR LIFE THAT
CAUSE OUR OWN PAIN.
LISA: IT’S A CONSEQUENCE.
GINGER: RIGHT,
CONSEQUENTIALLY.
ABSOLUTELY.
BUT JUST BECAUSE WE HAVE PAIN
IN OUR LIFE, IT DOES NOT MEAN
THAT GOD IS MAKING US SUFFER.
THAT’S VERY DIFFERENT.
JOYCE: PAIN AND SUFFERING
COMES FOR A LOT
OF DIFFERENT REASONS.
AND THAT’S WHY
IT’S ALMOST FOOLISH
TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT…
LISA: THAT’S RIGHT.
JOYCE: WHERE IT CAME FROM,
I MEAN, I–YOU KNOW.
LISA: OFTENTIMES,
IN SCRIPTURE, IT’S A PROMOTION.
YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK
AT JOB’S STORY, BASICALLY,
GOD WAS SAYING, “I VOTE JOB FOR
THIS BECAUSE HE WILL WALK
THIS OUT IN A WAY…”
GINGER: THANKS A LOT, GOD.
LISA: “BUT HE WILL WALK
THIS OUT IN A WAY THAT
GIVES ME GLORY.”
IT’S A PROMOTION.
DAVID SAYS IN PSALM 119…
GINGER: IT’S A BIGGER
PICTURE.
LISA: “IN HIS FAITHFULNESS,
HE HAS AFFLICTED ME.”
GOD WASN’T DOING THIS FROM
A CAPRICIOUS, PUNITIVE PLACE.
“HE KNEW MY FAITH WAS
STRONG ENOUGH TO WALK
THIS OUT IN A WAY.”
AND YOU KNOW, I DON’T
KNOW–JOYCE, YOU AND I–
WELL, I GUESS THE THREE
OF US ARE THE OLDEST HERE.
WELL, Y’ALL BOTH STILL
HAVE TIGHT SKIN
AND HIGH METABOLISM.
SO, I LOOK LIKE
THE OLDEST BUT…
GINGER: STOP.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
LISA: BUT YOU KNOW HOW,
WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEBODY YOUNG,
WHO HASN’T BEEN THROUGH ANY
HARDSHIP AND THEY’RE–WHEN
I HAVE SOME 22-YEAR-OLD COME
UP TO ME AND GO, “OH, MISS LISA,
WHEN YOU STOP WORRYING
ABOUT BEING MARRIED–I MEAN,
I REALLY STRUGGLED,
BUT WHEN I GOT MARRIED AT 19…”
AND I’M LIKE, “I WANNA KICK
HER IN THE SHINS.”
I’M LIKE, “YOU HAVE NOT LIVED
ENOUGH LIFE.”
BUT YOU HAVE SOMEBODY
WHO’S BEEN THROUGH HARDSHIP,
WHO SAYS, “GOD HAS BEEN
GOOD TO ME.
GOD HAS BEEN FAITHFUL.”
THAT KIND OF TESTIMONY HAS
CREDIBILITY BECAUSE YOU GO,
“BOY, THEY HAVE LEANED INTO
GOD IN THE DARK, STORMY TIMES
IN THEIR LIFE.”
AND I THINK THAT’S WHERE
YOU GO, “WOW.”
IT’S NOT THAT YOU GET CLOSE
TO GOD, AND YOU NEVER HAVE
HARDSHIP AGAIN.
IT’S THAT YOU CAN GET CLOSE
TO GOD, AND YOU GROW UP
AND YOU GO, “HE WON’T LEAVE ME.”
AND THAT’S ONE OF THE MOST
IMPORTANT THINGS.
JOYCE: IT’S ONE THING
TO SAY, “GOD IS FAITHFUL,”
WHEN YOU HAVEN’T HAD
ANY EXPERIENCES
TO GO THROUGH YET.
THEN IT’S JUST A SCRIPTURE
YOU PICKED UP SOMEWHERE
OR SOMETHING YOU HEARD
SOMEBODY SAY.
BUT I KNOW–I KNOW THAT
I WOULD NOT BE WHERE I’M
AT TODAY, IN MINISTRY, HAD I NOT
BEEN THROUGH THE THINGS THAT
I WENT THROUGH BECAUSE NOW
I DO HAVE EXPERIENCE AND I HAVE
EQUIPMENT, AND I KNOW WHAT
IT FEELS LIKE TO SUFFER,
BUT I DO ALSO KNOW WHAT’S
ON THE OTHER SIDE OF IT.
GINGER: THE THING ABOUT
THESE BIG QUESTIONS IS WE
COULD TALK ABOUT ANY ONE OF
THESE FOR THE ENTIRE PODCAST.
JOYCE: I STARTED TO SAY,
WE BETTER HAVE MORE
THAN ONE HERE.
GINGER: SO, SOME OF THEM
WE’LL ANSWER MORE QUICKLY,
AND MOVE ON.
HERE’S ONE,
FROM DAISY KIPGIN.
SO, I’M NOT GONNA STOP
READING THESE NAMES.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
LISA: IT’S A HAPPY NAME.
GINGER: DAISY’S A GREAT NAME.
“IS IT OKAY TO MARRY MY
NON-CHRISTIAN BOYFRIEND?”
LISA: I WOULD SAY NO.
I WOULD SAY VERY CLEARLY, NO.
AND PART OF IT IS,
I THINK GOD’S WORD’S
REAL CLEAR ON THAT,
NOT BEING UNEQUALLY YOKED.
BUT IT’S NOT BECAUSE
GOD IS PUNITIVE.
IT’S BECAUSE HE WANTS
WHAT’S BEST FOR US.
AND, YEARS AGO, I WAS
PROBABLY 13 OR 14 JUST
STARTING TO GO WITH BOYS.
AND MY DAD WAS SOUTHERN
TO THE BONE.
AND I CAME HOME WITH SOME
CUTE, LITTLE, COUNTRY BOY,
I WAS DATING, AND MY DAD SAID,
“LISA–” HE WAS A MAN OF FEW
WORDS, BUT THEY MATTERED.
HE SAID, “WANTCHA
TO COME OUTSIDE.”
HE WAS LIKE A MINIATURE
JOHN WAYNE.
I WAS LIKE, “YES, SIR.”
AND HE SAID, “I WANT YOU
TO CLIMB UP ON THAT
PICNIC TABLE.”
AND I THOUGHT,
“THIS IS THE ODDEST THING.”
AND I WAS LIKE, “YES, SIR.”
AND HE SAID, “NOW,
GIVE ME YOUR HANDS.”
I WAS LIKE, “YES, SIR.”
AND I HELD OUT MY HANDS,
AND HE GRABBED MY HANDS
AND HE JUST PULLED ME,
JUST A LITTLE BIT,
AND I FELL OFF THE PICNIC TABLE.
AND HE SAID, “DON’T EVER
THINK THAT YOU CAN PULL
PEOPLE UP TO YOUR LEVEL.”
THIS YOUNG MAN
WASN’T A BELIEVER.
AND HE SAID, “THEY WILL ALWAYS
PULL YOU DOWN TO THEIRS.”
AND THEN, HE JUST
WALKED IN THE HOUSE.
AND I WAS LIKE, “HUH.”
GINGER: AND YOU LAID
THERE ON THE GROUND
UNDER THE PICNIC TABLE.
LISA: HE CAUGHT ME.
I DIDN’T GET HURT.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
LISA: BUT YOU KNOW THAT
HAS FORMED—AND IT’S NOT THAT
YOU’RE BETTER, AS A BELIEVER,
THAN SOMEONE WHO
DOESN’T KNOW CHRIST.
I DON’T MEAN TO PUT THAT
IN A HIERARCHICAL STANDPOINT.
IT’S THAT THEY WILL PULL
YOU AWAY FROM JESUS.
YOU KNOW, HE SAYS
HE COMES WITH A SWORD.
HE COMES WITH A SWORD,
NOT CUZ HE’S AN ANGRY GOD,
BUT TO CUT AWAY ANYTHING
THAT THREATENS OUR
RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM.
AND YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE
TO WALK TOWARD JESUS WITH
SOMEBODY WHO DOESN’T
TRUST HIM.
SO, I’D SAY ABSOLUTELY NOT.
JOYCE: YOU KNOW,
THERE ARE MANY, MANY
CASES WHERE SOMEBODY
HAS MARRIED AN UNBELIEVER
AND THAT PERSON HAS COME
TO CHRIST AS A RESULT OF THAT.
SO, WE CAN’T SIT HERE
AND SAY THAT IT NEVER,
EVER, EVER WORKS.
BUT IF WE’RE TALKING ABOUT
JUST THE BIBLE, AND WISDOM,
IT’S MUCH BETTER TO FOLLOW
WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.
ERIN: I WILL SAY TOO,
BASED ON WHAT MIKE
AND I WALKED THROUGH
THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS.
SO MANY TIMES, I WOULD SAY,
“IF WE DIDN’T BOTH KNOW
THE LORD, THIS CONVERSATION
WOULD BE EXTREMELY
DIFFERENT RIGHT NOW.
AND EVEN, JUST THE OTHER NIGHT,
THERE–WE GOT FRUSTRATED,
AND I COULD FEEL IT ESCALATING.
AND SO, I BACKED
OFF AND I PRAYED.
I SAID–YOU’D HAVE BEEN
SO PROUD OF ME, JOYCE.
JOYCE: OHHH….
[LADIES LAUGHING]
ERIN: AND IT CHANGED
THAT CONVERSATION.
AND SO, I SAID TO HIM LATER,
“ISN’T THAT AMAZING,
WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT DID?
AND WE HAD A CONVERSATION
THAT BROUGHT US TOGETHER.
BUT SO MANY TIMES I’VE THOUGHT,
“IF WE DIDN’T BOTH
KNOW THE LORD,
THIS WOULD NOT BE WORKING
THE WAY IT IS RIGHT NOW.
JOYCE: IT’S ALWAYS BEST
TO FOLLOW SCRIPTURE.
EVEN, AS FAR AS GETTING
INTO BUSINESS WITH SOMEBODY
THAT’S NOT A BELIEVER.
YOU’RE NOT GONNA
HAVE THE SAME MORALS.
YOU’RE NOT GONNA HAVE
THE SAME PRINCIPLES.
LISA: BUT YOU KNOW,
BACK TO THE QUESTION,
IF DAISY REALLY LOVES
THIS FELLA, THEN I WOULDN’T SAY,
“KICK HIM TO THE CURB.”
I’D SAY, “HERE’S WHAT
THE BIBLE SAYS.
HERE’S WHAT MS. JOYCE SAID.
AND SO, I REALLY LOVE YOU.
IF IT’S MEANT TO BE, TIME AND
TRUTH WALK HAND IN HAND, WILL
YOU PLEASE START MEETING WITH
THESE GENTLEMEN IN OUR CHURCH
WHO ARE REALLY GOOD GUYS,
AND THEY’LL MEET YOU
AT STARBUCKS OR AT DENNY’S
FOR PIE AND WALK WITH YOU.
‘CAUSE I WOULD LOVE
TO BE YOUR WIFE,
IF YOU LOVE JESUS.
HE’S MY FIRST LOVE,
BUT I’D LOVE FOR YOU
TO BE MY SECOND.”
AND MAYBE,
TAKE HIM TO CHURCH,
JUST LIKE DAVE DID WITH JOYCE.
GINGER: THAT’S A GREAT
PRACTICAL STEP TO TAKE.
JAI: I THINK THAT’S REALLY
A GOOD POINT TOO.
BUT ALSO, I THINK IT’S
IMPORTANT TO SAY ALSO, IF YOU
KNOW, FLAT OUT THAT THIS GUY
DOESN’T LOVE GOD AND DOESN’T
WANT–LIKE, I CAN THINK OF
MANY THINGS THAT I WOULD
THINK THAT AFTER I GOT
MARRIED THAT MY EX WOULD
CHANGE OR, YOU KNOW, LIKE,
“OH, I CAN HELP HIM
GET TO THIS POINT.”
YOU KNOW?
LIKE, BUT IF YOU KNOW THAT
THIS PERSON DOESN’T WANT WHAT
YOU WANT, THEN YOU HAVE TO BE
COURAGEOUS ENOUGH TO KNOW
THAT, THAT’S NOT THE ONE.
YOU KNOW, DON’T TRY TO MAKE
SOMETHING HAPPEN.
JOYCE: YOU’RE TAKING
A BIG CHANCE WHEN YOU
MARRY SOMEBODY THINKING
YOU’RE GONNA CHANGE ‘EM.
GINGER: AND I THINK
LISA’S SAYING, “DON’T MARRY
HIM UNTIL SOME THINGS CHANGE,”
RIGHT?
BUT STILL.
LISA: I THINK THAT’S WHAT,
AS BEST WE UNDERSTAND
THE ANALOGY OF SCRIPTURE–
THE FULL OF SCRIPTURE,
I BELIEVE THAT’S
WHAT IT TEACHES.
EVEN IF YOU LOOK BACK
TO ISRAELITE COVENANTS,
I THINK THAT’S WHAT THE WHOLE
OF SCRIPTURE TEACHES.
BUT BE A LOVER
OF CHRIST IN THAT.
BE KIND TO HIM.
LOVE HIM WELL.
EVEN IF SHE HAS TO BREAK
UP WITH HIM, LOVE HIM WELL,
SO HE GOES, “YOU KNOW,
I DATED THIS
CHRISTIAN GIRL ONCE.
AND EVEN, IN BREAKING
UP WITH ME, SHE WAS
SO KIND AND SO RESPECTFUL.”
ERIN: ONE THING, I JUST
KEEP THINKING, WHEN WE ASK
QUESTIONS, LIKE THE ONES
WE’RE ASKING TODAY,
IT’S EASY, ESPECIALLY,
IF YOU DON’T HAVE
THAT RELATIONSHIP
WITH THE LORD, TO THINK,
“HE’S JUST GIVING
ME A BUNCH OF RULES.
SO, NOW, I CAN’T MARRY
THE MAN I LOVE BECAUSE
HE DOESN’T KNOW GOD.”
BUT I LOVE WHAT YOU SAID,
BECAUSE IT IS NOT
ABOUT RULES FOR HIM.
IT’S BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT
IS BEST FOR YOU.
“I LOVE YOU SO MUCH,
I’M GIVING YOU THIS
GUIDELINE BECAUSE I WANT
TO TAKE CARE OF YOU.”
SO, I JUST THINK THAT’S
IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER,
AS ANSWERING QUESTIONS.
IT’S BECAUSE HE LOVES US.
NOT BECAUSE HE’S A MEAN GOD.
LISA: I WAS TRYING TO
EXPLAIN THE 10 COMMANDMENTS
TO MISSY THE OTHER DAY.
AND I SAID, “BABY, WE TEND
TO SEE WHAT GOD TELLS US,
ENCOURAGES US TO DO,
AS RULES.”
AND I SAID, “THEY’RE NOT RULES.”
I SAID, “REMEMBER WHEN
WE WENT BOWLING?”
THE–WHEN THEY PUT THOSE FELT
BUMPERS UP, WHEN YOU BOWL,
AND IT KEEPS YOUR BALL
FROM GOING IN THE GUTTER.
I SAID, “THAT’S REALLY
WHAT THE IMPERATIVES
OF SCRIPTURE ARE.
GOD LOVES US SO MUCH.
HE WANTS US TO HAVE
A GOOD LIFE.
HE WANTS US TO HAVE
HEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS
WITH EACH OTHER.
SO, HE GIVES US THESE
PARAMETERS, AND WE CALL
THEM COMMANDMENTS,
OR RULES, OR IMPERATIVES,
BUT THEY’RE FOR OUR GOOD.
HE’S NOT AN ANGRY,
GOD TRYING TO WHACK US OVER
THE HEAD WITH A BIG BIBLE.”
JOYCE: HE’S NOT TRYING
TO TAKE AWAY EVERYTHING
WE’D LIKE TO HAVE.
HE’S ALWAYS, ALWAYS,
GOD IS TRYING TO SAVE
US FROM PAIN AND AGONY.
LISA: AMEN, AND BLESS US.
JOYCE: ALWAYS.
GINGER: LET’S GO A LITTLE
BIT OF A DIFFERENT DIRECTION.
AND TO BE HONEST,
I DON’T EVEN KNOW IF THE ANSWER
TO THIS IS IN THE BIBLE,
SO I’M HOPE–I KNOW YOU
JUST SAID EVERYTHING IS.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
GINGER: I KNOW, I KNOW–
JOYCE: AND YOU’RE NOT
GONNA GIVE IT TO ME.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
GINGER: BUT I WANNA HEAR,
BECAUSE I THINK
THIS IS A QUESTION
A LOT OF PEOPLE ASK,
“CAN LOVED ONES, IN HEAVEN,
SEE WHAT’S HAPPENING ON EARTH?”
LISA: THAT’S A GREAT
QUESTION.
ERIN: DO YOU HAVE
AN ANSWER TOO?
LISA: I’LL DEFER TO JOYCE.
THERE IS ONE BIBLICAL
PRECEDENT THAT SCHOLARS
TALK ABOUT.
AND THAT IS WHERE THE MAN
WHO WAS TORTURED SAID,
“IF HE COULD JUST GIVE ME A JUST
A DROP ON MY TONGUE FROM
HEAVEN,” SO SOME BIBLICAL
SCHOLARS SAY THAT MEANS
THEY CAN SEE.
I DON’T THINK YOU CAN COME
UP WITH A WHOLE BIBLE
STUDY THAT’S DEFINITIVE.
RANDY ALCORN HAS SOME GREAT
STUFF IN HIS BOOK “HEAVEN.”
BUT I DON’T THINK WE CAN
DEFINITIVELY–I’LL DEFER
TO JOYCE, BUT I HAVEN’T SEEN
ANYTHING THAT DEFINITIVELY
SAYS THEY SEE EXACTLY
WHAT’S GOING ON.
GINGER: IT’S ONE
OF THE MYSTERIES, I THINK,
THAT WE’RE NOT GONNA
KNOW FOR A WHILE.
LISA: WE DO HAVE THE MIND
OF CHRIST MORE GLORIFIED,
AND HE KNOWS EVERYTHING
IS OMNISCIENT.
SO MAYBE, BUT I THINK YOU HAVE
TO USE SOME GYMNASTICS…
JOYCE: PEOPLE THAT HAVE
HAD NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCE,
THEY ALWAYS SAY THAT THEY
RECOGNIZE THEIR RELATIVES,
SAW THEM.
I DON’T REALLY KNOW IF PEOPLE
CAN SEE WHAT’S GOING ON,
ON EARTH OR NOT.
I ALWAYS SAY, SOMETIMES,
WHEN I’M PREACHING THAT
MY DAD WHO ABUSED ME,
HE’S PROBABLY CHEERING ME ON.
BUT, TO ME, THAT’S NOT
A QUESTION THAT I CARE ABOUT.
YOU KNOW, IF THEY CAN,
THEY CAN.
AND IF THEY CAN’T,
THEY CAN’T.
OR PEOPLE ASK, YOU KNOW,
“ARE DOGS IN HEAVEN?”
OR YOU KNOW.
GINGER: YES.
JOYCE: I WANNA THINK MY–
[LADIES LAUGHING]
JOYCE: I WANNA THINK
MINE IS, BUT YOU KNOW,
I DON’T KNOW THAT.
LISA: AND SOME PEOPLE GO
TO HEBREWS 12, “THE CLOUD
OF WITNESSES” AND THEY
USE THAT FOR THAT.
BUT I DON’T THINK WE CAN
ANSWER THAT DEFINITIVELY.
GINGER: ALL RIGHT.
WELL, LET’S GO TO ANOTHER
VERY, VERY HARD QUESTION,
BUT AN IMPORTANT QUESTION.
“WHY AM I NOT HEALED?
I’VE PRAYED.
I BELIEVE.
I’VE DONE ALL I NEED
TO DO–OR ALL I KNOW TO DO,
AND I’M NOT HEALED.”
JOYCE: WELL, IF I WANTED
TO BE REALLY SUPER SPIRITUAL,
I WOULD TELL YOU THAT,
IN CHRIST, YOU ARE HEALED.
YOU MAY NOT EXPERIENCE
THE MANIFESTATION OF IT UNTIL
YOU GET TO HEAVEN.
BUT I BELIEVE THAT GOD’S
HEALING POWER IS IN US.
AND I DON’T KNOW WHY
IT’S ALWAYS NOT MANIFESTED HERE,
BUT WE KNOW THERE’S
NO SICKNESS IN HEAVEN.
THERE’S NO PAIN IN HEAVEN.
AND LIKE I SAID, MAYBE THAT’S
A LITTLE BIT TOO
OVERLY SPIRITUAL.
BUT IT’S OBVIOUS,
EVEN IN THE BIBLE,
NOT EVERY SINGLE
PERSON WAS HEALED.
PAUL HAD SOMETHING
WRONG WITH HIM.
TIMOTHY HAD A STOMACH PROBLEM.
AND YET, THERE WAS
ALL KINDS OF MIRACLES.
BUT NOT EVERYBODY–I MEAN,
THE ONE MAN GOT SICK FROM
WORKING SO HARD IN MINISTRY
THAT HE ALMOST DIED.
I’VE HAD THAT EXPERIENCE.
AND, SO, YOU KNOW, WE KIND
OF ONLY LOOK AT THE HEALINGS.
WE DON’T LOOK AT THE ONES
THAT WEREN’T HEALED.
LISA: AND WE ONLY LOOK
AT THE HERE AND NOW.
WE ARE BOUND IN OUR HUMAN
MINDS BY TIME AND SPACE.
IT USED TO ALWAYS DRIVE
ME NUTS THAT MOSES DIDN’T MAKE
IT INTO HEAVEN BECAUSE–INTO
NEBO, HE MADE IT INTO HEAVEN,
NOT INTO–SORRY,
THE PROMISED LAND.
AND I THINK IT’S SO SAD
HE WAS BURIED ON NEBO,
‘CAUSE HE WAS SUCH A GOOD GUY.
YOU KNOW,
APART FROM THE MURDER RAP,
HE WAS SUCH A GOOD GUY.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
LISA: BUT HE’S FAITHFUL
FOR 40 YEARS, AND THEN,
HE LOSES TEMPER, HITS THE ROCK
AND THEN, GOD SAYS–
JOYCE: AND THAT
SEEMS SO UNFAIR.
LISA: IT SEEMS SO UNFAIR.
AND THEN, ONE DAY,
I WAS STUDYING
THE TRANSFIGURATION,
AND I WAS JUST STUDYING
THAT AS A PARALLEL PASSAGE.
AND YOU KNOW, IT TAKES
PLACE ON A HIGH MOUNTAIN.
NEW TESTAMENT SCHOLARS
THINK IT’S MOUNT HERMAN,
BUT SOMEWHERE IN THE NORTHERN
SHORE OF THE SEA OF GALILEE.
AND THERE’S JESUS TRANSFIGURED,
HE’S SHINING
WHITE, AND THERE APPEARS NEXT
TO HIM, MOSES, AND ELIJAH,
CENTURIES AFTER THEY
EXPERIENCED A PHYSICAL DEATH.
AND I REMEMBER READING THAT,
AND YOU KNOW, THAT’S WHEN
YOU SAID THE BIBLE,
ISN’T A FLAT TEXT.
YOU READ IT AND IT’LL–
HEBREWS READS DIFFERENT
TO YOU, THIS WEEK,
THAN IT DID A YEAR AGO.
JOYCE: HE GOT TO GO INTO
A DIFFERENT PROMISE LAND.
LISA: RIGHT.
AND I WENT, [GASPS],
HE DID MAKE IT INTO THE PROMISED
LAND BECAUSE HE’S AT ONE
OF THE HIGHEST POINTS IN ISRAEL.
HE CAN SEE THE WHOLE
SEA OF GALILEE.
HE’S STANDING NEXT
TO A GLORIFIED JESUS.
IF WE COULD INTERVIEW MOSES
RIGHT NOW, ON TALK IT OUT,
AND SAY, “WOULD YOU RATHER
HAVE GONE INTO THAT
PHYSICAL LAND?”
GINGER: CAN YOU GET HIM
IN AS A GUEST FOR US?
LISA: MAYBE,
I’LL TEXT HIM AND SEE.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
LISA: YOU KNOW,
“WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE GONE IN,
IN YOUR PHYSICAL JAR
OF CLAY BODY WITH TWO
TO THREE MILLION INGRATES,
OR DOOR NUMBER TWO,
WOULD YOU RATHER TRUST
THAT OUR GOD IS ALL WAYS
REDEEMING?”
YOU’RE ALREADY HEALED,
IN THE CONTEXT OF THE DIVINE.
HE’D SAY, “DOOR NUMBER TWO,
‘CAUSE I GOT TO STAND
NEXT TO A GLORIFIED JESUS.”
SO, IF YOU’RE NOT HEALED
PHYSICALLY, THAT CAN
BE THE THORN IN YOUR FLESH,
THAT ALWAYS REMINDS YOU
WE’RE NOT GLORIFIED YET.
WE’RE–THIS ISN’T OUR HOME.
WE’RE ALIENS AND STRANGERS HERE.
“ONE DAY, I WON’T HAVE THIS
PHYSICAL AILMENT ANYMORE”.
AND THEN, YOU CAN TRUST THAT
GOD WILL USE IT TO GIVE YOU
A TESTIMONY, TO ENCOURAGE
OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE
WOUNDED AND HURTING.
WE’VE GOT MORE PEOPLE
IN PAIN THAN WE DO HAVE
PEOPLE THAT ARE HUNKY-DORY.
AND SO THAT GIVES
HER LEGITIMACY.
JOYCE: YEAH, I WALKED
IN HERE, THIS MORNING,
WITH A BACKACHE,
AND I’VE HAD IT FOR A MONTH.
AND I PREACHED OVER
THE WEEKEND WITH IT.
AND I’VE PRAYED AND MANY
PEOPLE HAVE PRAYED FOR ME.
I DON’T KNOW WHY, YOU KNOW,
I DON’T–I DON’T KNOW
WHY GOD HASN’T HEALED ME.
BUT I’M NOT FOCUSING ON IT.
I’M GONNA KEEP FOCUSING
ON WHAT I’M CALLED TO DO.
AND I BELIEVE THAT–
I BELIEVE GOD WILL EITHER
HEAL ME OR HE’LL ENABLE
ME TO DO WHAT I NEED TO DO.
LISA: AND THEN,
IN THE MEANTIME,
HE REMINDS YOU THAT
IT’S IN YOUR WEAKNESS,
THAT HE’S YOUR STRENGTH
WHEN YOU PREACH.
JOYCE: THAT’S RIGHT.
AND IT WILL END WELL.
I DON’T KNOW HOW
LONG IT’LL TAKE,
BUT IT WILL END WELL.
AND YOU KNOW, IT’S VERY,
VERY HARD TO ANSWER
THE QUESTION FOR SOMEBODY,
“WHY AM I NOT HEALED?”
BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW
ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT’S GOING
ON WITH GOD AND THAT PERSON.
AND THAT DOESN’T MEAN THAT
SHE WON’T BE HEALED MAYBE
TOMORROW OR THE NEXT DAY.
I THINK WE JUST–WE HAVE
TO BELIEVE.
JAI: AND WHAT I’M LEARNING
THOUGH, AS I MATURE AND GROW
EVEN MORE, YOU KNOW, I’M 40,
BUT I’VE GOT A LONG WAY TO GO,
BUT I’M LEARNING EVEN
THROUGH THIS LAST HARD,
HARD TRIAL, IS THAT I USED
TO BE SO GOAL ORIENTED,
AS FAR AS LIKE
THE FINISH–THE OUTCOME.
I WANT THE OUTCOME.
WHAT I’M LEARNING,
AS I’M EMBRACING THE STRUGGLE
OF LIFE, OR HEALTH ISSUES,
OR THINGS LIKE THAT, AND EVEN,
WATCHING MY MOM STRUGGLE
WITH CANCER, YOU KNOW,
SEVERAL TIMES IT’S LIKE,
IT’S MORE–IT’S LESS ABOUT
THE REMISSION, LIKE PART.
IT WAS LESS ABOUT
THAT FOR MY MOM.
IT WAS MORE ABOUT THE JOURNEY,
LIKE, HOW SHE WENT THROUGH.
AND THE TESTIMONY OF WHAT I SAW,
EVEN WITH–AT–MY MOM HAS
BLOWN ME AWAY WITHOUT–
YOU KNOW, WITH THE CANCER
EPISODES SHE’S HAD.
HONESTLY–CUZ MY DAD’S
BALD NOW, BY CHOICE.
BUT LIKE, HE WOULD
TAKE HER TO CHEMO.
AND THEY’D BE LIKE,
“WHICH ONE OF YOU ARE
HERE FOR THE TREATMENT?”
[LADIES LAUGHING]
JAI: YOU KNOW,
CUZ MY MOM LOOKS SO GOOD.
LIKE, MY MOM MADE SURE SHE’S
LIKE, “AS I GO THROUGH THIS,
I WANNA BE AN EXAMPLE,
YOU KNOW, TO SHOW WHAT
GOD IS DOING THROUGH ME,
NO MATTER HOW I FEEL.”
MY MOM WAS WEAK, BUT SHE–
YOU COULD NOT–THAT’S WHY
I LIKE WIGS, I THINK,
CUZ MY MOM.
YOU KNOW, LIKE,
SHE HAD A WIG ON,
SHE JUST LOOKED GOOD,
AND SHE WENT THROUGH
IT WITH SO MUCH JOY.
SO, I’M JUST LEARNING THAT
THROUGH THE PROCESS.
IT’S THE JOURNEY LESS
THAN THE OUTCOME.
WE BELIEVE FOR THE OUTCOME.
WE BELIEVE THE BEST
FOR THE OUTCOME.
BUT THE PROCESS IS…
JOYCE: WHEN I WAS A KID
AND MY DAD WAS SEXUALLY
ABUSING ME, I WOULD LAY
IN BED AT NIGHT AND PRAY
THAT GOD WOULD DELIVER
ME FROM THAT SITUATION.
I PRAYED MY MOTHER
WOULD LEAVE HIM.
I PRAYED STUFF.
I SHOULDN’T HAVE PRAYED.
I PRAYED HE’D DIE.
YOU KNOW, I JUST–I WANTED
OUT OF THAT SITUATION SO BAD.
AND AS I SAY, GOD DID NOT
GET ME OUT OF IT, BUT HE DID
GET ME THROUGH IT.
AND I GAINED EQUIPMENT
AND EXPERIENCE.
AND I CAME OUT OF IT,
NOT BITTER AT GOD, EVENTUALLY,
ABLE TO FORGIVE AND EVEN
TAKE CARE OF MY MOM AND DAD,
AND EVENTUALLY, GET TO LEAD
MY DAD TO THE LORD.
AND WE ALWAYS WANT
TO GET OUT OF THE PAIN.
THAT’S HUMAN NATURE.
WE’RE GONNA CONTINUE
TO WANT THAT.
BUT IF GOD DOESN’T GET
YOU OUT OF IT, HE WILL
TAKE YOU THROUGH IT.
AND I THINK WE HAVE
TO BE ABLE TO TRUST HIM,
THAT WHICHEVER WAY
HE CHOOSES TO DO IT.
I MEAN, JESUS DIDN’T
GET OUT OF IT.
HE DIDN’T GET OUT OF IT.
I HEARD A STORY ABOUT
ONE MAN WHO GOT SO MAD
AT GOD BECAUSE HIS SON
HAD CANCER AND HE DIED.
AND HE’D PRAYED FOR HIM TO LIVE,
AND HE KINDA SHOOK HIS FIST
AT GOD AND SAID, “WHERE WERE
YOU WHEN MY SON DIED?”
AND GOD ANSWERED HIM BACK,
AND SAID, “THE SAME PLACE
I WAS WHEN MINE DIED.”
ERIN: OH WOW.
THAT’S GOOD.
JAI: THAT’S HEAVY.
GINGER: ALL RIGHT.
LET’S JUST MOVE ON TO ANOTHER
QUESTION BECAUSE–
JOYCE: HOW ‘BOUT SOMETHING
A LITTLE SIMPLER?
[LADIES LAUGHING]
GINGER: OKAY.
LISA: DO YOU KNOW,
WHAT I THINK IS GREAT
THOUGH ABOUT THIS?
IS NONE OF US ARE GIVING
PAT ANSWERS.
BECAUSE IT–WHEN YOU SAID
IT REALLY IS ABOUT UNBELIEF,
YOU’VE GOT TO BELIEVE,
EVEN WHEN THERE ISN’T
A SIMPLE ANSWER.
AND I THINK OUR CULTURE
IS TOO QUICK TO GO,
“OH, HERE IT IS.”
AND SOMETIMES,
IT’S JUST IN THE PROCESS.
GINGER: OR EVEN, TO SAY,
YOU DON’T HAVE THE FAITH
OR THERE’S THIS
GOING ON IN YOUR LIFE.
AND THERE ARE ALL KINDS
OF SITUATIONS, LIKE YOU SAID,
WE DON’T KNOW WHAT’S
REALLY HAPPENING.
BUT THOSE ARE NOT
THE ANSWERS THAT ARE
HELPFUL TO A SUFFERING PERSON.
JOYCE: THERE’S NO SUCH
THING AS FAITH WITHOUT SOME
UNANSWERED QUESTIONS.
GINGER: RIGHT.
LISA: THAT’S RIGHT.
JOYCE: IF YOU HAVE
ALL THE ANSWERS,
THEN YOU DON’T NEED GOD.
ERIN: I WAS JUST READING
MY BIBLE THIS MORNING,
AND YOU SAID THAT
EXACT SAME THING.
IT WAS YOUR NOTE ON THERE,
ON–IT WAS FOR HEBREWS.
AND YOU SAID FAITH–
YOU NEED FAITH UNTIL
IT’S ALREADY HAPPENED.
ONCE YOU GET WHAT
YOU’RE PRAYING FOR,
OR THAT SITUATION’S OVER,
YOU DON’T NEED FAITH ANYMORE.
SO, FAITH IS THE PROCESS
OF WAITING FOR SOMETHING.
I THOUGHT THAT
WAS REALLY GOOD.
GINGER: THIS IS THE BIBLE
WITH JOYCE NOTES IN IT,
IS THAT WHAT–?
ERIN: YES, I’M SORRY.
IT’S JOYCE’S
“ENJOYING EVERYDAY LIFE” BIBLE.
GINGER: CUZ, JOYCE DID
NOT WRITE THE BIBLE.
ERIN: NO, JOYCE DIDN’T.
BUT SHE KNOWS IT.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
LISA: IT’S JOYCE’S
COMMENTARY.
JOYCE: WE COULD LIGHTEN
THIS UP, JUST FOR A MINUTE.
AND I CAN TELL YOU
A FUNNY STORY.
ERIN: PLEASE DO.
JOYCE: A GIRL WAS
DATING A GUY.
THIS IS TRUE.
AND SHE KEPT TELLING HIM,
“YOU NEED TO READ JOYCE’S BOOK.
YOU NEED TO READ JOYCE’S BOOK.”
WELL, SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT
“BATTLEFIELD OF THE MIND.”
SO, HE GETS A BIBLE,
AND HE LOOKS ALL OVER
THE PLACE FOR JOYCE’S BOOK.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
JOYCE: AND HE TAKES
IT TO HER, AND HE SAYS,
“I CAN’T FIND THE BOOK
OF JOYCE IN HERE.”
JAI: GENESIS, EXODUS,
LEVITICUS, JOYCE….
[LADIES LAUGHING]
LISA: THAT’S AWESOME.
THAT’S GREAT.
JOYCE: I NEEDED THAT LAUGH.
WHAT’S THE NEXT HARD QUESTION?
GINGER: OKAY.
THIS IS–I THINK–
THIS IS A GOOD QUESTION.
“CAN I GET INTO HEAVEN
WITHOUT GOING TO CHURCH?”
ERIN: YES.
JOYCE: YES.
JAI: YES.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
GINGER: NO, I WASN’T–
ANY MORE ANSWERS?
ANYONE WANT TO DISAGREE?
NO, I THINK THAT’S
SO IMPORTANT IS:
“WHAT GETS US INTO HEAVEN?”
IT’S NOT THAT I GO TO CHURCH.
IT’S NOT THAT
I DO EVERYTHING PERFECTLY.
SO, WE DO HAVE TO UNDERSTAND
CHURCH IS A GOOD THING.
CHURCH IS IMPORTANT FOR US.
IT TEACHES US,
IT GIVES US FELLOWSHIP.
IT’S WHERE WE GROW,
BUT IT IS NOT THE DOORWAY.
JOYCE: WE DON’T BUY
OUR SALVATION, WITH IT.
IT WAS BOUGHT WITH
THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.
LISA: YEAH, THAT’S RIGHT.
BUT YOU WILL–I’M TELLING YOU,
YOU WILL HAVE SUCH A HARDER
ROAD TO HOE THAN IF YOU AREN’T
SURROUNDED BY COMMUNITY,
BECAUSE ALMOST ALL
OF THE IMPERATIVES
IN SCRIPTURE ARE GIVEN
IN THE CONTEXT OF COMMUNITY.
ERIN AND I WERE TALKING
ABOUT THIS OVER LUNCH,
ALMOST ALL OF THE VERBS
PAUL USES THE NEW TESTAMENT
ARE DOING, BEING, WALKING
VERBS THAT YOU NEED
TO BE DOING THIS TOGETHER.
AND TOGETHER–I MEAN,
THERE ARE SO MANY SEASONS
OF MY LIFE THAT I’M LIKE,
“I CAN’T CARRY MYSELF
TO THE ROOF.
I NEED SOME PEOPLE TO TAKE
UP THE CORNER OF MY MAT.
PRAY FOR ME,
CARRY ME TO THE ROOF
AND LOWER ME TO JESUS.”
SO, NO, CHURCH WON’T
GET YOU INTO HEAVEN,
BUT OTHER PEOPLE WHO
KNOW JESUS, MAN, THEY MAKE
THE WALK HERE ON EARTH,
SO MUCH SWEETER,
SO MUCH BETTER.
AND I THINK YOU GET UP FASTER,
OFF THE FLOOR, WHEN YOU
HAVE BELIEVERS AROUND YOU.
SO, I THINK SOMETIMES,
WE DO CHURCH
AS A COUNTRY CLUB,
WHICH IS GROSS.
BUT IF YOU RECOGNIZE
CHURCH AT SOME LEVEL
AS A SPIRITUAL HOSPITAL,
WE’RE ALL IN DIFFERENT
STAGES OF HEALING.
THEN YOU GO, “OH, I’M–WE’RE
IN THIS TOGETHER.”.
JOYCE: DON’T YOU LOVE
IT WHEN YOU ASK SOMEBODY
IF THEY’RE SAVED, AND THEY TELL
YOU WHAT CHURCH THEY GO TO?
LISA: OH, IT BREAKS MY HEART.
JOYCE: YOU KNOW THAT
THEY DON’T KNOW.
THEY THINK THAT GOING
TO CHURCH IS WHAT’S
GONNA GET ‘EM INTO HEAVEN.
LISA: I GO TO STARBUCKS
A LOT AND I’M NOT COFFEE.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
LISA: YOU KNOW,
IT DON’T MAKE YOU A CHRISTIAN
JUST TO SIT THERE.
JAI: I WANNA
BE COMPLETELY HONEST.
DURING MY HARD TIME,
I WAS ON STAFF AT A CHURCH,
AND I WAS REALLY LET DOWN.
LIKE, I WAS REALLY HURT
AND DISAPPOINTED
BY WHAT I FELT LIKE,
I THOUGHT THE CHURCH
WOULD DO WHEN SOMETHING
LIKE WHAT I WENT THROUGH,
WITH FINDING OUT
MY HUSBAND HAD AN AFFAIR,
THEN GOING THROUGH DIVORCE.
I JUST WANTED THE FOUR
WALLS OF–TO DO MORE FOR ME.
LISA: TO BE SAFER.
JAI: I WANTED TO FEEL SAFE.
AND I FELT SO UNCOVERED,
WHEN I WAS ALREADY, LIKE,
THE COVERING OF MY LIFE,
MY MARRIAGE, WAS RIPPED OFF
OF ME, AND THEN I FELT
UNCOVERED BY THE CHURCH.
AND SO, I WENT THROUGH
A LITTLE PHASE OF LIKE,
I WAS LIKE, ALMOST,
NOT GRATEFUL FOR THE PANDEMIC,
BUT I WAS LIKE,
I NEEDED A BREAK.
I NEEDED A BREAK FROM
FEELING LIKE I HAD TO DO,
DO, DO, DO, DO AT CHURCH.
BECAUSE, I WAS LIKE,
I’M DOING FOR THESE
PEOPLE THAT ARE ABUSING
ME AND AREN’T HELPING ME.
AND IT WAS VERY–SO I WENT
THROUGH THAT PHASE.
JOYCE: I HOPE, BY THEN,
YOU’D LEFT MY CHURCH.
JAI: OH, IT WASN’T–
IT WASN’T.
IT WAS NOT YOUR CHURCH.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
JAI: IT WAS NOT YOUR CHURCH,
LET ME MAKE THAT VERY CLEAR.
BUT–AND IT WASN’T EVEN JUST
THE PARTICULAR CHURCH.
IT WAS THE BIG “C” AT LARGE.
IT WAS THE PEOPLE I’VE DONE
MINISTRY WITH SO LONG,
YOU KNOW.
BUT I AM GRATEFUL.
AND THIS IS SOMETHING
I WANTED TO SAY, EVEN WITH
SOME OF THE OTHER QUESTIONS,
IS THAT ALL OF THIS IS ABOUT
A CHOICE TO BELIEVE.
IT’S A CHOICE TO UNDERSTAND THAT
SUFFERING COMES FROM SIN,
BUT IT’S ALSO A CHOICE
TO BUILD THAT COMMUNITY.
HAD I NOT HAD YOU,
YOU, YOU, I’M SURE YOU,
IN THE SPIRIT REALM,
BUT I’M SAYING THE CHURCH
BECAME PEOPLE TO ME.
ESPECIALLY WHEN,
WITH THE PANDEMIC NOT
BEING ABLE TO GO INTO A CHURCH.
I RESIGNED FROM THE ACTUAL
CHURCH I WAS WORKING, YOU KNOW,
BEING THE WORSHIP PASTOR AT.
BUT IF I DIDN’T HAVE
HUMANS TO HOLD ME UP,
I REALIZED IN MORE DEPTH,
IN THAT SEASON OF WANTING
TO BE MAD AT THE CHURCH,
THAT I WAS THE CHURCH,
THAT YOU WERE THE CHURCH.
JOYCE: AND CHURCH IS NOT
A BUILDING, IT’S PEOPLE.
JAI: EXACTLY.
JOYCE: WE’RE ACTUALLY,
HAVING CHURCH RIGHT HERE.
JAI: EXACTLY.
SO, I’VE ALLOWED GOD
TO REDEFINE WHAT
CHURCH IS TO ME.
SO, GOING TO A CHURCH,
OF COURSE, I STILL LOVE,
YOU KNOW, THE STRUCTURE
OF WESTERNIZED CHURCH,
BUT I LOVE COMMUNITY EVEN MORE,
REAL DEEP, REAL COMMUNITY,
MORE THAN I LOVE THAT.
GINGER: YOU SAID
SOMETHING ELSE.
YOU SAID THAT YOU GOT TIRED
OF DOING, DOING, DOING, DOING.
AND THERE–YOU KNOW, OF COURSE,
THE CHURCH IS FULL OF PEOPLE
WITH ALL SORTS OF HURTS
AND PROBLEMS OF THEIR OWN,
SO IT’S NEVER GONNA BE PERFECT.
BUT WE DO FEEL LIKE,
AND I KNOW I FELT IT MANY
TIMES IT’S MORE ABOUT
WHAT I’M DOING.
“AM I ACCOMPLISHING
THE RIGHT THINGS?
AM I DOING EVERYTHING
GOD WANTS ME TO DO?
AM I DOING WHAT THE CHURCH
NEEDS ME TO DO?
MY DOING WHAT MY FAMILY
NEEDS ME TO DO?”
AND THERE’S SO MUCH
PRESSURE IN ALL OF THAT,
THAT GOD DOES NOT PUT ON US.
THAT’S NOT WHAT HE’S ASKING.
LISA: RIGHT.
I THINK WE’VE GOT A LOT
OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ANGRY
AT THE CHURCH AND SOME
FOR GOOD REASON.
THERE’S AN OLD BOOK THAT SAYS
THAT “THE CHURCH IS THE ONLY
ONE WHO SHOOTS ITS WOUNDED.”
AND SO, WE’VE GOT A LOT
OF GROUND TO COVER.
BUT I’D SAY, FOR PEOPLE
LISTENING, WHO ARE LIKE,
“OH, WELL, MY CHURCH
BUGS ME TOO.”
INSTEAD OF LEAVING THE CHURCH,
PRESS IN AND BEGIN TO MODEL
WHAT CHURCH SHOULD BE,
WHICH IS A BROKEN,
BUT SAFE COMMUNITY WHO
CARES FOR ITS WOUNDED,
WHO PRAYS FOR EACH OTHER,
WHO DOES WHAT Y’ALL
DO IN COMMUNITY.
TAKE THAT TO YOUR LOCAL CHURCH,
BECAUSE HEBREWS DOES SAY
“DON’T GIVE UP THE HABIT
OF MEETING TOGETHER.”
YOU NEED TO BE IN FELLOWSHIP
AND THAT’S THE BRIDE OF CHRIST.
SO, I THINK, IT’S GOOD
FOR US TO GO, “BOY,
THERE’S A LOT OF PLACES
WHERE WE’VE MISSED IT,”
BUT INSTEAD OF–
I SEE WOMEN UNDER 40,
JUST THE CHURCH
IS HEMORRHAGING PEOPLE GOING,
“I’M JUST GONNA GO ONLINE.
AND THEN, I’M GONNA CHERRY
PICK MY FAVORITE PASTORS.”
AND I’M LIKE,
“NO, THAT’S NOT HEALTHY.”
YOU NEED TO BE IN A COMMUNITY
OF BELIEVERS.
BUT MAKE IT MORE GOD-HONORING
AND OTHERS-HONORING.
PRESS IN AND GO, “LET’S NOT
DO THIS LIKE THIS ANYMORE.”
BECAUSE I WAS–SORRY,
“BECAUSE I WAS WOUNDED,
YA’LL DIDN’T CARE FOR
ME THE WAY WE’RE SUPPOSED
TO CARE FOR EACH OTHER.”
I THINK, MAN, IT WOULD
BE SO GREAT.
IF THE–IF WE HAD YOUNG
BELIEVERS GO, “I’M RECOMMITTING
TO THE LOCAL CHURCH TO MAKE
IT THE WAY GOD DESCRIBES
IT TO WHERE IT’S A GOD
AND OTHERS HONORING PLACE.”
JOYCE: YOU KNOW,
I FEEL REAL INCLINED
TO SAY SOMETHING.
I JUST FEEL LIKE SOMEBODY
NEEDS TO HEAR THIS.
I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE
GO TO CHURCH SO THEY
CAN GET SOMETHING.
AND–SO, IF YOU’RE NOT
GETTING SOMETHING
OUT OF YOUR CHURCH,
MAYBE GOD’S GOT YOU
THERE TO GIVE SOMETHING.
SOMEBODY NEEDED TO HEAR THAT.
GINGER: YEAH.
YEAH.
ALRIGHT, ANOTHER HARD QUESTION:
“AFTER ABUSE,
HOW DO I TRUST AGAIN?
I’M STRUGGLING WITH INTIMACY,
AND I NEED HELP.”
JOYCE: WELL, I COULD
JUST GET REAL PLAIN HERE
AND TELL YOU WHAT GOD TOLD ME.
NOT TO BE TOO PLAIN,
BUT THE LORD JUST TOLD
ME THAT WHEN YOU HAVE SEX
WITH YOUR MARRIAGE PARTNER,
THE HOLY SPIRIT DOESN’T
LEAVE THE ROOM.
AND I WAS HAVING
A REALLY HARD TIME.
AND HE TOLD ME TO JUST MAKE
A COMMITMENT TO DO WHATEVER
HE TOLD ME TO DO.
AND HE WALKED ME THROUGH IT,
STEP BY STEP, BY STEP.
EVEN, AS FAR AS, LIKE,
A LITTLE SOMETHING,
LIKE, LEAVING THE LIGHTS ON.
AND IT WAS LIKE,
EACH STEP WAS HARD.
BUT SEE, THE HOLY SPIRIT
KNOWS WHAT YOU CAN TAKE, WHEN.
THAT’S WHY WHEN,
THE HOLY SPIRIT–
WHEN YOU TURN YOUR CASE
OVER TO THE HOLY SPIRIT,
HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT TO PUT
ON YOU TO DO AT WHAT TIME.
YOU GO TO–AND I’M NOT
AGAINST COUNSELING.
BUT YOU GO TO ANY OTHER
COUNSELOR, AND SOMETIMES,
THEY TELL YOU TO DO THINGS
THAT YOU’RE NOT…
LISA: QUITE READY.
JOYCE: READY FOR.
I HAD A WOMAN IN MY OFFICE,
THAT I WAS COUNSELING HER,
ONE TIME.
AND SHE WAS LIVING
WITH HER BOYFRIEND.
SHE’D JUST GOTTEN SAVED.
SHE WAS LIVING WITH
HER BOYFRIEND.
AND I MEAN, I JUST COULDN’T
WAIT FOR THIS WOMAN TO QUIT
TALKING SO I COULD TELL HER
SHE HAD TO QUIT LIVING
WITH HER BOYFRIEND.
AND I’M TELLING YOU,
THE LORD SPOKE TO ME.
AND HE SAID,
“DO NOT SAY THAT TO HER.
SHE IS NOT READY FOR THAT.
WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT,
I WILL TELL HER.”
SO, THERE’S NO BETTER
COUNSELOR THAN
THE HOLY SPIRIT.
AND WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL
WHEN WE’RE GIVING PEOPLE
ADVICE THAT WE DON’T JUST
TELL THEM ALL THE BIG
GROWNUP ANSWERS.
LISA: RIGHT.
JOYCE: SOMETIMES, YOU HAVE
TO JUST LET THE HOLY SPIRIT
WALK A PERSON THROUGH IT,
ONE STEP AT A TIME.
AND THAT’S NOT AN EASY
THING TO DO, BUT IT DOES
TAKE STEPS OF FAITH.
GINGER: I THINK THAT’S
SUCH A BEAUTIFUL REMINDER
THAT THERE IS NOTHING OUTSIDE
OF THE REALM OF WHAT GOD
CARES ABOUT IN OUR LIFE.
LISA: THAT’S RIGHT.
GINGER: THE THINGS THAT
SOMETIMES WE THINK ARE TABOO
OR, YOU KNOW, WE SHOULDN’T
TALK ABOUT IN THE CHURCH,
NO, THERE’S NOTHING LIKE THAT.
AND THE FACT THAT GOD TOLD
YOU THAT HE WOULD HELP YOU
THROUGH THAT PROCESS
IS SUCH A RELIEF FOR
SO MANY PEOPLE RIGHT NOW.
JOYCE: I THINK,
FOR SO MANY PEOPLE,
THEY THINK THAT GOD LEAVES
WHEN THAT ACT, YOU KNOW,
IT’S LIKE, GOD CREATED IT.
YOU KNOW, THE WORLD
HAS TURNED IT INTO
SOMETHING DIRTY.
BUT GOD INTENDED IT TO BE ONE
OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL
THINGS THAT PEOPLE DO.
ERIN: THAT IS GONNA
CHANGE SOMEBODY’S LIFE.
BECAUSE WHAT THAT SAYS IS,
ESPECIALLY, WOMEN,
LIKE THAT’S A VERY
VULNERABLE EXPERIENCE.
AND SO, TO–WHY WOULD
GOD–WHY WOULD I THINK
THAT GOD WOULDN’T BE WITH
ME IN THAT, WHEN THERE’S FEAR,
OR PAIN, OR WHATEVER.
THAT’S–HE’S NOT GONNA LEAVE
AT THE DOOR WHEN I AM
WALKING THROUGH SOMETHING
THAT FEELS SCARY OR WHATEVER,
WHATEVER A PERSON
IS EXPERIENCING.
BUT TO REMEMBER,
HE’S RIGHT THERE WITH ME,
THIS SO BEAUTIFUL AND THAT–
JOYCE: AND WHEN YOU’VE
BEEN ABUSED, SEX IS ALWAYS
DIRTY TO YOU.
SO, YOU HAVE TO REALLY
LET GOD TEACH YOU THAT,
THAT’S WHAT THE WORLD
HAS DONE TO IT.
THAT’S NOT REALLY WHAT IT IS.
LISA: AND, JOYCE, TO BACK
THE BUS UP A LITTLE BIT.
I WAS–WE HAVE RELATIVELY
SIMILAR STORIES.
AND BECAUSE OF THE ABUSE
IN MY BACKGROUND,
AND MY OWN SIN,
AND THE WAYS I LEARNED
TO BE SELF-PROTECTIVE,
I NEVER MARRIED BECAUSE
I WAS SO AFRAID OF INTIMACY.
I COULD CALL IT A HUNDRED
DIFFERENT THINGS.
AND I WAS DRAWN
TO MORE ABUSIVE MEN.
SO, GOD PROTECTED ME FROM
SOME OF THE DECISIONS
I WOULD’VE MADE.
BUT IT TOOK ME UNTIL I WAS
IN MY FIFTIES, TO GO,
“NO, I STILL HAVE UNBELIEF.”
AND WHAT I’VE HAD TO LEARN–
I’M SO FAR BEHIND YOU,
IS I’VE HAD TO LEARN WHAT
IT IS TO BE HELD BY GOD.
BECAUSE IT’S MUCH EASIER
FOR ME TO GET THE HOLINESS
OF GOD, THAN THE INTIMACY
HE AFFORDS US IN JESUS.
AND SONG OF SOLOMON
CHANGED MY LIFE.
I’M NOT–I DON’T GET JIGGY
WITH ANYBODY WITH SKIN ON.
I’VE NEVER BEEN MARRIED.
BUT TO SEE
IN SONG OF SOLOMON 4,
WHERE HE SAYS, “THROUGH
THE BRIDEGROOM WITH ONE
GLANCE OF YOUR EYES,
YOU CAPTURED MY HEART.”
I’M REAL COMFORTABLE
DOING FOR GOD.
TO LEARN TO LEAN INTO
THE ARMS OF JESUS,
AND JUST BE HELD,
I THINK FOR SOME OF US THAT’S
THE FIRST STEP OF INTIMACY,
IS TO ACTUALLY LEARN
INTIMACY WITH JESUS.
GINGER: WOW.
AND THERE ARE SO MANY
DIFFERENT FORMS OF ABUSE.
YOU KNOW,
WHAT JOYCE WENT THROUGH,
WHAT YOU WENT THROUGH.
I HAD A GREAT RELATIONSHIP
WITH MY HUSBAND
WHEN I FOUND OUT,
QUITE A FEW YEARS AGO,
THAT HE HAD
A PORNOGRAPHY ADDICTION.
AND THEN YOU TALK ABOUT TRUST.
TRUST WAS INSTANTLY GONE.
AND SO, I HAD A LONG WAY
TO GO TO BUILD THAT TRUST
BACK UP AND TO FEEL RIGHT
IN INTIMATE SITUATIONS AGAIN.
AND IT WAS SO HARD.
AND THE THING THAT
GOD REALLY HELPED ME WITH
AND HELPED US TO BUILD
A RELATIONSHIP THAT IS NOW
BETTER THAN IT EVER WAS,
AND STILL HARD SOMETIMES
BECAUSE YOU KNOW,
THINGS ALWAYS CREEP BACK,
WAS THAT GOD WAS NOT ASKING
ME TO BUILD A NEW TRUST
IN MY HUSBAND, AT FIRST,
HE WAS ASKING ME TO TRUST HIM.
JOYCE: THAT’S EXACTLY RIGHT.
GINGER: I HAD TO TRUST
GOD FIRST.
JOYCE: THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT
GOD TOLD ME, “I’M NOT ASKING
YOU TO TRUST HIM.
I’M ASKING YOU TO TRUST ME.”
LISA: WOW.
JAI: AND I THINK THAT EVEN
APPLIES TO, EVEN THOUGH,
YOU KNOW, THE QUESTION
WAS ABOUT ABUSE.
I THINK IT ALSO APPLIES TO A LOT
OF CHRISTIAN WOMEN THAT
ARE STILL VIRGINS, OUT THERE,
THAT ARE AFRAID OF INTIMACY
BECAUSE–YOU KNOW,
LIKE, I KNOW I STRUGGLED
WITH THAT WHEN I FIRST
GOT MARRIED.
IT WAS LIKE, HOW DO I GO FROM,
YOU KNOW, A SAINT TO THIS
PERSON THAT’S SUPPOSED
TO BE PROFESSIONAL.
LISA: WEARING FISHNETS.
JAI: YEAH, LIKE,
I DON’T KNOW WHAT I’M DOING.
LISA: I HAVE WOMEN TALK
TO ME ABOUT THAT ALL THE TIME.
IT’S LIKE, “DON’T DO IT.
DON’T DO IT.
WHOO-HOO!”
JAI: THEN YOU’RE JUST
SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHAT YOU’RE–
LISA: I DON’T–I’M NOT SURE.
THAT’S A PROCESS.
JAI: YEAH, BUT I THINK THAT
THIS KIND OF CONVERSATION
DOES APPLY TO THAT AS WELL.
ALLOW THE HOLY SPIRIT
TO TEACH YOU, BECAUSE THAT WAS
A STRONGHOLD, IN OUR MARRIAGE,
FROM THE BEGINNING,
BECAUSE IT JUST–IT COULD–
IT WAS ALWAYS A SIN IN MY HEAD.
LIKE EVEN WHEN I WAS MARRIED,
LIKE IT WAS JUST
A SIN IN MY HEAD.
SO, YEAH.
GINGER: YOU GUYS
HAVE BEEN SO HELPFUL.
I MEAN, THERE ARE
SO MANY GOOD QUESTIONS.
WE COULD DO THIS ANOTHER
EPISODE SOMEDAY.
MAYBE, WE’LL COME BACK,
AND DO IT AGAIN, DOWN THE ROAD,
BUT THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH.
YOU GUYS ARE AMAZING WOMEN.
JOYCE: WELL, THANK YOU
FOR LETTING US ANSWER
THESE HARD QUESTIONS.
GINGER: [LAUGHS]
YOU ARE VERY WELCOME.
ANYTIME.
WE’LL ALWAYS GATHER HARD
QUESTIONS FOR YOU
AND TOSS THEM YOUR WAY.
AND WE DO APPRECIATE
ALL OF YOU SENDING
IN YOUR QUESTIONS.
SO MANY MORE GOOD ONES HERE.
AND JUST REALLY PRAY FOR YOU,
WHATEVER IT IS THAT
YOU’RE DEALING WITH NOW,
BECAUSE SO MANY OF THESE
SITUATIONS COME BACK TO THAT
FOUNDATION OF WHO GOD IS.
NO MATTER WHAT THE DIFFERENT
THINGS ARE THAT HAVE
TOUCHED YOUR LIFE,
IT’S TRUSTING IN GOD
AND HIS LOVE FOR YOU,
AND THE FACT THAT HE’S GOOD,
AND THAT HE’S THERE WITH YOU.
SO, WE HAVE AN OFFER FOR YOU
THAT IS A GREAT THING TO GET,
TO DIG INTO WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.
IT’S JOYCE’S BOOK CALLED
“UNSHAKABLE TRUST.”
IF YOU GO TO JOYCEMEYER.ORG–
JOYCE: [CLAPPING]
EW, I LOVE THAT BOOK.
I LOVE THAT BOOK.
[LADIES LAUGHING]
JOYCE: NO, I DO LIKE IT,
EVEN THOUGH I’VE WRITTEN–
I THINK IT’S PROBABLY ONE
OF THE BEST BOOKS I’VE WRITTEN.
GINGER: IT’S SUCH AN
IMPORTANT–IT IS, IT’S SO GOOD.
GO TO JOYCEMEYER.ORG/TALKITOUT.
YOU CAN GRAB THAT BOOK
AND ALSO FIND OUT MORE
ABOUT THE PODCAST,
WATCH OTHER EPISODES.
THANK YOU.
LOVE YOU ALL.
APPRECIATE YOU.
LISA: THANK YOU
FOR HAVING US.
GINGER: WE’LL SEE
YOU NEXT TIME.
JOYCEMEYER.ORG/TALKITOUT
IS A WONDERFUL PLACE.
GO THERE FOR TODAY’S RESOURCE,
TO CHECK OUT
ALL OF THE EPISODES,
AND TO GET TO KNOW
US A LITTLE BETTER.
PLEASE, DON’T FORGET
TO SUBSCRIBE WHEREVER YOU
LISTEN OR WATCH JOYCE MEYER’S
TALK IT OUT PODCAST.
AND LET US KNOW WHAT
YOU’RE THINKING.
YOUR VOICE IS IMPORTANT TO US.
[MUSIC]