At UT Dallas, Christian Apologist Frank Turek from CrossExamined.Org has an enlightening exchange with an atheist named Carter. Frank discusses the following objections: The moral argument is offensive because it says atheists can’t be moral! Why can’t the universe be the uncaused first cause? If we don’t believe in God, He will send us to Hell!
yes sir what’s your name hello Carter
hey Carter and I very much like to in my
addressing your it’s a moral law
argument that without God’s an objective
moral standard eight years so do not
rest in peace okay let me stop right
there because that’s not the case I
never said that atheist can’t be moral I
never said atheists don’t know morality
in fact atheists know morality just like
everybody else we know morality because
it’s written on our hearts what I’m
saying is is that atheist can’t justify
morality that’s the point in fact I had
to say this several times to Christopher
Hitchens Christopher I’m not saying
you’re a bad guy
Christopher I’m not saying you don’t
know morality in fact I like Christopher
I thought it was a good guy what I’m
saying is you can’t justify why not
murder innocent people to get what you
want
that’s the point it’s a point about
ontology not a point about epistemology
it’s not a point about how you know the
moral law it’s a point about why does
the moral law exists behind dresses but
I really like to address the designer
okay as I usually argue that a painting
or a creation to use the term painting
implies a theme for a design classic
designer but I was that food design job
and if you don’t design God God’s
timeless spaceless immaterial and he
existed eternally in an uncaused fashion
then why can’t nature exist in the exact
same way and infernal unpoliced faceless
material fashion why can’t our onion
cause origins yes marvelous and precise
as God but in Africa
excellent question Carter that’s a very
good question you’re right that we have
two options here either the universe is
the uncaused first cause or something
beyond the universe is the uncaused
first cause the problem is is that all
the evidence points to the fact that the
universe is not the uncaused first
caused and i didn’t have time to go
through that evidence tonight that was
part one but I’ll give it to you very
briefly in an acronym Serge su are GE s
stands for the second law of
thermodynamics which says that the
universe is running down well if it’s
running down somebody must have wounded
up we’d have no energy left right now if
the universe was eternal the use to
answer the fact that the universe is
expanding Edwin Hubble detected that
back in 1929 and shows that everything
came from a single point a point
actually of infinite density the
singularity which is actually nothing so
the universe had a beginning the are in
surd stands for the radiation afterglow
that’s the remnant heat discovered by
Penzias and Wilson in 1965 which is
literally the smoking gun to the Big
Bang there’s heat remnant heat from the
Big Bang still out there which shows
that the universe had a beginning the G
Insurge stands for the great galaxies
seeds which were very fine temperature
variations in that radiation afterglow
that allowed the galaxies to form in the
early universe and the e stands for
Einstein’s theory of general relativity
which shows that time space and matter
are Co relative that they came into
existence together that space time and
matter literally had a beginning
Einstein knew this in 1916 then
observational evidence be Kant began in
1919 when Eddington did his test on the
set on the Eclipse and then Hubble
discovered the expanding universe in
1929 and then on to the radiation
afterglow in the great galaxies seeds
after that so the evidence points to the
fact that the universe is not the young
cause first cause so there must be
something beyond the universe that is
and that thing that’s beyond the
universe must be spaceless timeless and
immaterial and if you’re time less do
you have a beginning no so that God is
not he didn’t have a beginning he’s the
uncaused first cause
Aristotle Plato they all knew this they
knew there had to be an unmoved mover I
believe you’re drawing a false dichotomy
because we do not know the original
cause was God there is no reason to save
an intelligent designer was the first
cause the unpause first lost cause
everything else I do not have a training
or expertise review search science in
fact I set your conclusion that the big
bank advocate in space-time found an to
existence from unfortune but we do not
know that this point of origin is God
only God is to make a false assumption
another reason for the existence of
everything might simply be that other
dimensions have the power and the
marvelousness and complexity to create
the situation where existence could
where the Big Bang brought into
existence in space-time and abaca begin
to exist without an intelligent designer
well Carter what you just described
there is what we would call God God is
in another dimension that has the
ability to bring these dimensions into
existence so if you want to call it
another dimension you can call it that
but that’s exactly what we mean by God
then why is there
excellent point you don’t have to
worship God in fact Aristotle never
worship God in fact the Greeks never got
their theology and philosophy together
they knew that there had to be an
unmoved mover but they never put the two
together and worship the unmoved mover
so you don’t have to worship the unmoved
mover you don’t have to you can do
whatever you want that’s why you have
free will God loves you enough to give
you free will you can love him or reject
him that’s up to you on that point you
will to accept or reject God but the
obvious solution is a rejection God
believes for eternal damnation in heaven
reality we do not really have the choice
to accept or not accept God we must
ultimately accept God
assuming well if you want to avoid let
me back up for a second there’s only two
possibilities if God exists
in eternity you’re going to be with him
or you’re not going to be with him right
that’s logically the only two options if
you want to be with him
you will seek him out and be with him if
you don’t want to be with him God will
not force you into his presence against
your will in fact let me make the
objection stronger than what you’re
making it you’re very polite but I
debated an atheist who was a little bit
more direct and let me tell you this man
was a good man I like him his name is
Eddie – Bosh he’s an attorney from
Beverly Hills we debated University of
Michigan a number of months ago and he
looked at me during the Q&A and he said
Frank my mother was a survivor of the
Holocaust
she lived an awful life somebody
presented her with the gospel and she
rejected it is she in Hell right now
whew I said Eddie I don’t know where
your mother is I don’t know she made a
profession of faith in her last moments
but if she didn’t then God will not
force her into his presence against her
will God is too loving for that and I
asked the audience this question in fact
I’ll ask you as an audience this
question ladies is there anybody in here
who’s ever had a man pursue you
and you did not want that man to pursue
you you did not want to date him anyone
in here of course in fact some you’re
going yeah he’s sitting right next to me
right now he won’t be he’ll up I said
okay ladies suppose this man continues
to pursue you and continues to pursue
you and you say look I only like you as
a friend ladies why don’t you just take
the knife stick it in and turn it
because every man in here has heard this
I like you but only as a friend well
suppose he continues to pursue you
continues to pursue you and he gets to
the point where he says look I love you
so much I’m going to force you to love
me can he do that no he can’t do that
love by definition must be freely given
so if he truly did love you what would
he do he would leave you alone that’s
exactly what God does he keeps sending
us cards letters and flowers why we’re
here and if we keep rejecting him keep
rejecting him he gives us up to our own
desires and that ultimately what he’ll
is ultimately what hell is hell is
separation from God so you’re free in
hell you can continue to reject God in
hell but you’re confined to hell in fact
hell is a quarantine of evil that’s what
it is and heaven of course is being in
the very presence of God God loves you
too much to force you into his presence
against your will
thanks Carter
you