Is Bill Johnson an Apostle? Are Apostles for today? Bill Johnson and Bethel Associate Pastor and Dean of BSSM Dann Farrelly discuss the Five-Fold Ministry and how it is active and moving in the Church today.
where the apostle and the prophet tend
to see more
future type things uh
wisdom enables us to see
a structure order uh
the but it’s a it’s like you stand here
tell us what you see yeah you stand here
tell us what sort of pastor says well i
see these people are hurting the apostle
says well i see this is what god is
building into the earth it’s not a
competition it’s together we bring the
whole picture and i just think it’s
necessary and beautiful
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bill we are here again uh having
conversations about topics that are
meaningful to us things that we’ve been
learning about you for 40 plus years
yeah me i’m much younger so less time
is on camera i have to be honest so the
uh
but we’ll get a chance to talk about
some of the things that people wonder
and some things we’ve been learning
about so thanks for being here yeah
absolutely
we got a chance to touch on some of this
with chris but uh some folks think that
we’re part of nar the new apostolic
reformation and it was a title i hadn’t
heard about until somebody thought we
were a part of it and so it’s it’s you
know kind of interesting where are you
in
that discussion i don’t i didn’t even
know what it was uh until not too long
ago somebody asked me if i belonged and
i asked well what is that so i i don’t
we don’t belong to anything
of that nature but we hardly agree with
many of the things that some of our
friends in different organizations are
really pursuing just trying to become
authentically
biblical and fully living out what is in
in scripture and sometimes we get it
right sometimes we don’t but we’re on
that journey of are trying to explore
what god has laid before us yeah and i
think part of it is it in do it in
tandem with the rest of the body of
christ i would even say the catholic and
the orthodox church and with i just
there’s 33 000 i think denominations
protestant denominations or something
like that so like we’re trying to walk
with all those guys there’s a lot of
apostles there i don’t know
but um
so we’re trying to do it uh not as the
way but as just part of the lord’s team
as he’s bringing the good news the
message to the earth
and so part of that just can you talk
about the fivefold ministry and how you
see it is it is it for today oh yeah how
do you you know understand your own role
in that
absolutely uh
the scripture says ephesians 4 is our
primary text for this that these gifts
were given until
we come to unity of faith to the
knowledge of the son of god to a mature
man and we’re not quite there yet and so
those gifts were in operation they were
released but for a specific purpose they
were released to equip the saints to
carry out the work of service they’re
not titles of identity they’re not
titles of exaltation
it’s not a hierarchy where we grow from
this position to that position they are
specifically graces that god puts on the
life of an individual to demonstrate
what jesus did in the earth what because
he was all all five obviously it was the
best of all five and i would say good
apostles have an evangelist took part as
well and good teaching i mean you’re
you’re a great teacher you’ve got that
component so yeah it’s it’s not like
this this is my lane everybody’s down on
my lane
no yeah it’s not it’s not to be used for
self-promotion it’s not to be used for
you know this is who i am everybody else
stay away it’s you know it’s just it’s a
grace it’s a function it’s a perception
on life that enables us to serve well
yeah and to impact people and that’s the
main deal i i really don’t care if i’m
called anything in fact i prefer people
just call me bill this is true he likes
people to call him bill and it’s hard
for some people so they some people just
apologize he’s like i have to call you
pastor bill at least that’s fine that’s
fine i’m called all kinds of things
yes
some of them are good well you were
called a pastor when you first came here
because coming out of the assemblies of
god yeah denomination
so
but i mean you’re you’ve got some
pastoral but maybe not
maybe not a ton of pastorals
what are you trying to tell me no i love
your stories about counseling about how
not great you were at it but the uh
but partly i was here when we were on
this journey when people started calling
an apostle i remember you being super
uncomfortable with it it wasn’t a title
you put you could grab for yourself
just coming to terms with like do we
even do this what are the implications
can you do you mind talking some about
your own personal journey sure how you
let people call you that and what that’s
or
what do you want to say i uh
i’ve believed in fivefold ministry as we
call it for as long as i can remember
certainly 40 45 years ago i had no
problem with it but when you’re called a
specific title that makes you
uncomfortable
i don’t review it theologically i just
review it as
you know i
i that i don’t like it you know i i i i
it makes me feel real uncomfortable and
uh
and they’re trying to honor and so what
i’ve what i’ve been learning to do is uh
is allow people
to address me in a way that’s most
comfortable for them but whenever they
ask me what do you want to be called i
mean i have this when i go to other
churches or conferences say i say do you
want to be called the apostle bill do
you want to be called pastor bill let me
smile just thinking about that but oh
well it’s true and they’re just all
they’re trying to do is just is honor
and respect whatever tradition i come
from and i tell them every time i say
you know i just i prefer you just call
me bill yeah and sometimes they can’t do
that so i let them run with whatever
title but that’s not the point the point
is just uh is that we have that kind of
a respect and a value for one another
and i don’t mind calling you know
somebody else an apostle prophet or
pastor or whatever
i i do that all the time we have friends
that uh they go by the title bishop and
and i i honor them with that absolutely
with that talent it’s in the bible you
know
yeah so that’s my approach so what are
the uh marks that have apostle paul
talks about he bears the marks and that
the i think the marks of an apostle were
done amongst you or like so what are
some of the things that you think kind
of characterize that because we’ve been
comfortable with pastors and teachers
and evangelists yeah but we were
uncomfortable and part of the church
says prophets and apostles were a
foundational gift
that just was for a season and ended and
that now it’s the season of pastors
teachers and evangelists and we would
say no that we don’t think that’s the
way it is and yeah but
it doesn’t say that no it doesn’t say
that
i think they look around the lack of
them and go i guess they’re gone and um
and i think i talked about this with
chris last time in that in the age of uh
heresy you had to kind of enforce who’s
in charge of who and and what do we
actually believe with the teacher and
preacher and in the age of persecution
as well you’re like what should i die
for that this codifying like this these
are the things these are people who are
powerful and this is what we hold to
what is important for the for the church
but i digress you’re going to talk about
what one of the marks of apostle how do
you
what makes them unique do you know what
to talk about this you just roll your
eyes no
sorry
it’s just a it’s a huge it’s a bigger
subject than we have for this but and
chris carries really a great great
clarity on this more than i do to be
honest but uh the way i look at the the
apostolic gift the apostolic calling is
that both the apostle and the prophet
have
a their position gives them a perception
of heaven and how it’s to affect earth
it’s a culturizing role it’s not that
the prophet is more spiritual than the
evangelist who is all about souls it has
nothing to do with who’s more spiritual
it has to do with perception yeah it has
to do with impact the pastor is moved by
the needs of the sheep as he should be
you don’t want him dreaming about
you know 100 years down the road and and
you you want him caring uh for the flock
and so he has he’s got a perception on
the here and now the pain of this person
the success of this one yes and that’s a
gift that god’s given him it’s a
position of
perception yeah
where the apostle and the prophet tend
to see more
future type things
wisdom enables us to see
a structure order
these steps brings about this result and
and again it’s not a more spiritual
position i don’t believe i don’t think
it’s a hierarchy but it’s a it’s like
you stand here tell us what you see
yeah you stand here tell us so the
pastor says well i see these people are
hurting the apostle says i see this is
what god is building into the earth it’s
not a competition it’s together we bring
the whole picture and i just think it’s
necessary and beautiful yeah absolutely
i mean i have more of a pastor teacher
gift to me so i i do when i when i first
kind of you were in my world because i
was here you were actually here way
before me but then
whatever but then i was on staff and
then you came and can retain me on the
staff but i much more pastor teacher i
was like where are the sermons about how
how to deal with anger like you know
where are the sermons about how to
have build a good family which weren’t
you were talking about heaven and
miracles and the transformation of
society and i’m like
do we even like society i thought we
were uh i thought we were against him so
the uh
in some ways that what you brought was
so different than my kind of
denominationalism that i was raised in
where it was just like we’re focused on
the sheep and the bible and maybe the
evangelist believes in the loss but this
idea of like god’s still communicating
through prophetic insight sometimes or
that he has a blueprint um and a kind of
a culture i think we happen upon this is
that through our time together and in
scripture i think paul created a culture
right like think totally and that’s what
i see in you and us i think paul
manwaring was one of the first ones in
our meetings to go like
people like our miracles but they love
the culture that we’ve created yeah and
so that role of the apostle to gather a
team
and enculturate him maybe something
isn’t super obvious in scripture but i
do think it’s what you saw when paul and
his his entourage his posse rolled into
a place they were like the way these
people relate the way they do scripture
together the way they they work and
labor so they don’t get up we don’t they
don’t take an offering from us they’re
actually
you know trying to work for free in our
midst and build something in our midst i
think that culture is actually
contagious that exactly the apostle
prophet pastor teacher and evangelist
build together exactly
and when you embrace
what we would refer to as a kingdom
culture it gives you hope because you’re
building unto something
you’re not just hoping to be rescued
you’re actually
you you’ve embraced the assignment to
bring about change in the world around
us and and that for me
is the real mark of the apostolic and
the prophetic is is there is a heart for
the world around us
and there is a plan a plan not to
dominate or take control but a plan to
influence and to serve well and i think
that’s the beautiful part of those gifts
so for me that’s what i think of when i
think of apostle and prophet yeah and i
i think there’s a mistake in the church
that the apostle is scrambling to get on
top of the pyramid
when paul clearly said he’s the servant
of all you’re like we’re the least
they’re the fools for christ so uh the
idea of like the it’s the chief servant
in the midst which actually kind of
helps create that culture as well so
wherever that anxiety is like i would
say that marks a true apostolic
leadership or servanthood and humility
that should be part of it the ability
the ability to endure suffering for the
for the cause of the kingdom
we see signs and wonders are a part of
it as well i think paul
and peter interpreted old testament
scripture for their communities you know
so there’s a measure of that obviously
the teacher does that as well but the
apostle is doing some of that so
i do think it’s important gift for today
and that the church
is going to continue to become even more
beautiful as we kind of rediscover
without anxiety
without domination people sometimes
afraid apostles are going to control and
dominate i’m like there’s a whole lot of
churches where pastors
were leaders or the board yeah or just a
mean person in the congregation
is controlling and dominating so you
don’t need the label to actually have
that happen it’s it’s a tragedy of some
of our
spiritual environments
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