Bill Johnson sits down with Michael Brodeur from PastorsCoach.com for their Apostolic Voices MasterClass. This is part three of five, in which Michael and Bill discuss our need for the five-fold ministry, and how they work together.
i was saved into the jesus movement in
in the mid 70s and
i was part of a um a movement that
actually planted a church in san
francisco
it was the lighthouse ranch and they
planted 80 churches before they began to
subside
and that’s kind of the way that we
thought about uh the way we thought
about
the apostolic was it was mainly about
church planting
and that’s probably one dimension you
know how do you
see that like what what other dimensions
are there for you
and uh how much importance do you put on
the church planting side of things or
the missionary side of things
well it’s it does come down to the
meaning of the word
apostle it’s the sent one so it has to
be
central to what we think of as the
apostle but it’s more than a church
planter
yeah i mean i i do agree with that
concept
but it’s it’s church planting in the
sense of planting
groups of people into the earth that can
culturize bring transformation i mean
that’s
that would be a broader definition but i
do agree that
uh that the the whole concept of being
sent in planting
uh churches is is what is it’s what is
needed all over the world
it’s it’s uh it’s a healthy part and
it’s important it’s critical
yeah and it’s it’s interesting because
over my years i’ve gotten to
sort of spend time with probably i don’t
know maybe six or eight different
apostolic leaders of different flavors
and there are different flavors
and so if you were to kind of say well
what are the what are the three or four
things that would be common to all
because it’s not necessarily a builder
not necessarily a planter not ever
necessarily a pioneer
um obviously i think one of the things
i’ve seen with you is just that sense of
the supernatural being in touch with the
holy spirit other dimensions that you
see
um hope okay hope that’s good uh
healthy apostles always have hope always
always always have hope
and they also always have vision yes
they’re not waiting to be rescued
they’re wanting to build something yes
and that’s uh that’s at the core of who
they are
they’ve been called they’ve been they’ve
been called with an assignment
to build something that accurately and
adequately represents another world
that’s so good
and uh there’s a it’s like the the
apostolic heart
in mind same same with the prophetic
actually is there’s this perception of
if i could use the term heaven’s
blueprint on how things should work
yeah there’s just that perception
there’s that it’s not that they’re more
spiritual than
the evangelist it has nothing to do with
it has to do with
with where god put you to see and so the
apostle prophet have this
this position to see blueprints the
evangelist sees the hearts of men
see or the pastor you know you get the
point so it’s not
it’s not that one is greater than the
other it’s just the perception
or the the assignment they have
determines how they’re going to see
and so the whole apostolic prophetic is
uh is central in that sense because god
lets them see with burning conviction
the blueprints of heaven and there’s
always
there’s always hope there’s always
vision and there’s
always the um not a drive but a focus to
build
yeah building is huge that’s so good
yeah well it’s interesting because you
know when you look at the first great
awakening
you know you’ve got jonathan edwards you
have george whitefield
and then you have john wesley and
it’s interesting to look at you know
whitfield was seemed
obviously more anointed than wesley they
had a parting of ways at some point over
theology and
that got mended towards the end
but there are still churches today in
fact the methodist church just had
another
sort of let’s call it a reformation
around
some biblical issues and a whole new
life coming into the methodist church
talk about that aspect of the building
that aspect of the strategic that john
wesley had that seemed like george
whitefield didn’t have
no no you’re exactly right they both had
tremendous power in their preaching
which was interesting
uh for conversion for salvation but
wesley had this
motto organized to beat the devil
and that’s why his movement was called
methodist method
you know they they would they championed
methods or strategies
and and the lord used that brilliance to
create something that lasted longer than
his life lifetime and and that in
in a sense is what i don’t know that
it’d be fair for me to call
wesley an apostle and with phil an
evangelist i i don’t see it clear enough
to say that
but you can see that that uh that an
apostle is supposed to build something
that contains or sets uh parameters
boundaries for a movement
yeah and uh that that certain values are
never compromised certain values are
never compromised
and that we hold to these that these
things i call them cornerstones of
thought in our world
you know the whole god is good nothing’s
impossible
uh everything was dealt with at calvary
purchased at calvary and that every
person is significant
those are cornerstones of thought that
just should not be compromised and if we
can
discover what god is saying to us in our
lifetime
and then adhere to them then we will
it’s a weird illustration but it’s like
a foundation of a house
in the kingdom it attracts building
supplies
it’s it’s like you get it in place you
attract what
what uh what is uh goes into the actual
building
yes and i i’ve just watched it in the
kingdom for years when people get
certain things established in their
foundational beliefs on why they’re on
planet earth
when that’s there and they maintain that
sense of
worship and honor then they attract the
supplies
they attract the insights yeah no it’s
so good in fact you know one of my
favorite scriptures
as it pertains to the apostolic gifting
is
first corinthians chapter 3 where paul
describes himself as a master builder
he’s not the architect obviously the the
builder and maker is god
but he’s receiving the blueprint and
then he’s
gathering the right people the right
resources to actually bring it about
to make it happen interestingly too
that’s
that’s juxtaposed to chapter four
where he says you have many teachers you
don’t have any fathers
so the two aspects that i see in the
apostolic are the builder the
the father you know that that dynamic um
you know we live in a season right now
where the church is primarily built on
what i would call a pastoral foundation
you know ephesians 2 20 however says the
church is to be built on a foundation of
apostles and prophets
now some theologians would say well
that’s referring to the 12 apostles of
the lamb and that’s referring to
old testament prophets but in the very
next
few verses it says now these things are
being revealed
so there’s a very present reality that’s
being described in the book of ephesians
and obviously chapter 4 kind of
culminates and sort of puts it all
together
give us your thoughts on those passages
and how
you know the ephesians 4 passage works
in your understanding well
you’re absolutely right i mean that’s uh
there’s no question it’s it’s easy
to take the large promises and prophetic
decrees of scripture
and put them off into a period of time
for which we have no responsibility
it’s avoiding responsibility yeah and uh
and we have to own up to the fact that
that he said these gifts are given until
yes
this is an operation until this happens
what is it
unity of faith we’re not quite there be
at least another week
unity of faith to the knowledge of the
son of god that there’s going to be this
massive revelation
of the son of god and that we would come
to
the uh to a mature man that’s that’s the
one of the most extraordinary promises
in the bible
is that the body of christ would come
into a place of function
as a singular mature man in other words
christ
on earth again his body demonstrated
represented represented represented and
and those gifts are to equip unto that
and it happens through every person
functioning in their role
every one of us receiving grace from
these gifts
our lives are shaped by the grace we
receive from the prophet
from the evangelists i need these people
in my life regardless of my role
i need those people releasing
the grace that they carry into my life i
think better
when i’ve been with with the prophet i
see better
when when i’m hanging out with an
evangelist i
i get moved more with human need to
when i’m with that pastor the precision
of the teacher i need that
to need you know those are all gifts
still are important for me
and so what we do is we we release a
grace that enables the church to become
something
and uh and it’s it happens through
ministry it happens through ministries
these grace these gifts are given to
equip the saints for the work of
ministry
so the point is is that maturity is
marked by increased responsibility
god rewards he rewards all growth with
pruning
and all maturity with increased
responsibility
yeah because the wilderness didn’t
didn’t lead to the hawaiian islands
where you sit on a beach in a beach
house the rest of your life
it led to a promise line where they had
to go to work and that was maturity
and so in the kingdom the church
functioning as the church
is what models maturity wow and it’s
that maturity that brings us
into what he said should happen uh
that’s so good
i mean one of the challenges obviously
in the debate
of do these gifts still exist today you
know is the apostle and prophet still
relevant obviously most of the church
would say yes to
the pastor yes to the teacher and
in many cases yes to the evangelist but
one thing that i think is pretty clear
in the passage itself if we’re careful
and
we have to look at it as a whole passage
17 i mean 7 to
16 that each of these gifts was given at
the same time
they’re all distinct from one another
but they were given for the same purpose
so they’re given at the ascension of
christ which wasn’t the day of pentecost
it was several days before it was given
for the
you know the equipping of the saints for
the work of the ministry and then unto
what you were talking about that
maturity
and that responsibility that’s that
culminates in verse 16 where every
member’s doing its part
and the body grows and it builds itself
up in love
that that reality and and so again you
know to all of our friends who are
you know still trying to figure this out
you know it’s pretty clear to me
and just a simple treatment of that
passage but i think one of the
challenges that we’ve had is that we’ve
unfortunately put all the emphasis on
verse 11.
now it’s an important verse you know
when we name those five gifts and
they’re all aspects of christ they’re
all parts of who he is
but really it seems like the primary
verse in the whole passage is verse 12.
the equipping of the saints can you talk
about that like how does that work you
know
what you know obviously there’s
impartation there’s teaching there’s
training there’s
other dimensions to the equipping
dynamic
talk about that well each of those
giftings as you mentioned
represent an aspect of jesus himself his
life is ministry
and and what these gifts do let’s just
take profit
when a prophet ministers in his rightful
place
in the church his rightful voice his
rightful influence
the church sees better yeah they see
better
they see they function with the grace
of a prophet it doesn’t mean they are
prophets it just means that
grace enables them to function as the
prophetess
same with the evangelist the evangelist
in in that is to equip the saints so
it’s not just the guy who holds big
crusades
he actually his influence in the church
is to make god’s people evangelistic and
the same with the pastor to be able to
give
compassionate care over people in need
and the apostle that whole
blueprint concept for transformation
each of these gifts the teacher
that people would have a heart for the
study of scripture that they get that
from the teacher
it doesn’t mean they’re a five-fold gift
but but they can function in a
teaching communicative role to impart
understanding of scripture
yeah you know they talk with their
neighbor their neighbor they help to
disciple them
because they led them to christ they’re
in a teaching role it doesn’t mean
they’re necessarily
the one of the five-fold but they
operate under the
influence of the teacher that influences
them
and a lot of the reaction though is
because of
um you know people have used titles for
self-promotion
yeah and a lot of the reaction is just
they don’t like that
you know they don’t like you know the
the guy
you know flaunting himself uh you know
going to another city and i’m the
apostle i should be in charge of it well
that’s just dumb
that’s just dumb it’s all of this is
relational and it’s it’s all out of
servitude
it’s all out of the the compassion and
the desire
to see jesus exalted and people
strengthened
and if you don’t have those two things
you know go find something else to do
but giving yourself a title doesn’t make
it happen
and so a lot of the reaction is that so
if we can just get a generation that is
comfortable
uh with proper acknowledgement of
scripture but not use it for
self-promotion
use it just help helping us to
understand this is my assignment in
serving
and this is what i want to contend for
if we can if we can do that
we’ll get rid of a lot of the uh doubt
about
those being uh real today and most of uh
as you mentioned uh the church functions
around the concept of a pastor
it’s not evil it’s just incomplete you
know the pastor my goodness
we we need that tremendously but
but there’s a whole other aspect that
can help to make us even healthier
that’s so good