Bill Johnson sits down with Michael Brodeur from PastorsCoach.com for their Apostolic Voices MasterClass. This is part one of five, in which Michael and Bill discuss the importance of apostolic ministry, where we see it in Scripture, and what it looks like today.

all right everybody well it’s so good to

have all of you joining us

we have a live studio audience here

today and we also have

uh facebook live as well and so if

you’re on

zoom and you want a little bit cleaner

sound go to facebook live and join us

there

but anyway i’m so excited about this day

i get to be with one of

the you know amazing leaders that’s been

such a mentor in my life

and has had such an impact in my life

but before i introduce bill

i just want to say this is the beginning

of a series that we are doing called

apostolic voices and this apostolic

voices master class is focused on trying

to help

the church to understand how to

integrate the different gifts of the

spirit

particularly the apostolic and prophetic

gifts into how we do church

in the in the real world and so we have

different speakers coming from different

perspectives

and as i begin though i’d like to just

give a little disclaimer because

our audience right now we probably have

about 300 people online

and let me just say that you know we

love the whole body of christ

but there are different perspectives

around the church

especially as it relates to the question

of the apostolic

and so you know first of all let me just

say clearly that

when we talk about apostolic we are

talking about the ephesians 4 gifting

but we’re not talking about

the replacements for the 12 apostles of

the lamb

that we uh affirm uh you know jesus’s

choice in that

the second thing we’re not talking about

is we’re not talking about anyone

writing new scripture

okay so please hear that clearly and

then the final issue that i really want

to make sure we underscore

is that there’s a lot of teaching about

the apostolic right now and some of it’s

very focused on

uh dominionism and obviously you know we

believe that jesus is going to come and

set up his kingdom

but you know we also believe that we are

to be salt and light

so that we’re not supposed to be the

dominating force in society we are

supposed to influence through our

servanthood through our love

and so again if we can clarify those

three things

i’d like to introduce bill johnson so

thank you bill for being with

us you know you need no introduction but

i just want to say that

i first met you about 15 years ago and

we moved up here after 33 years of

pastoring in san francisco

we moved up about 10 years ago and it’s

just been such an honor to be connected

to you and what god’s doing here so

you know as we begin i just like your

perspective what do you see

as apostolic ministry what does it mean

how how does it manifest in the local

church

just give us your thoughts as we get

started well um

the apostolic has several layers to it

one is

it’s uh a culturizing agent

it it really catches a perspective

of the reality of heaven how heaven

functions

the values of god’s world and what it

looks like to implement those here

so there’s the transformational role

there’s also the power

role they really helped to set a

standard

of power not just focused on

apostles doing all the stuff but

really training up raising people and

when you have the apostolic in place

there tends to be a greater dimension of

power

for miracles and for endurance uh both

both are essential parts of uh display

of god’s power

so tell us like you know looking through

history looking through scripture

what are some of the models that you see

that you know of apostolic ministry that

mean the most to you oh goodness well

of course in scripture the entire book

of acts you know

you can’t beat that um

a personal favorite uh a guy that you

hardly ever hear of

us a guy named hans nelson hoga in

norway

he was uh he was a revivalist a reformer

that was in prison for preaching

but he had this he had this unusual gift

as a revivalist of transforming culture

by starting businesses

and he was actually in prison one time

for preaching the gospel they pulled him

out of prison because the

the nation was in the health crisis

because of the lack of salt

and they knew he would know how to fix

that and so they brought him out of

prison he created a salt

factory and it really saved the nation

in many ways

and and then they put him back in prison

which is absolutely crazy but uh

but he was uh he was a culturizer in

that he would

he would go into a city or a village and

preach the gospel people would come to

christ

he would see the young people there that

needed a

purpose other than farming or whatever

it is that they may have been doing

previous and he’d start a business and

turn it over to them

so he it’s a most unusual gift but i but

i admire so much then of course the

reformers of

calvin and all those guys you know way

back in geneva back in those days

i admire all of that because they they

uh they were revivalists on one hand but

they also transformed the world therein

yeah that’s just those are my my

favorite stories

yeah now when we you know one of the

classic messages here is on earth as it

is in heaven

and that whole idea of kingdom come will

be done

um how does that intersect with the

apostolic role like how do you see those

that message and the apostolic function

kind of working together

well personally i think the entire what

we refer to as the lord’s prayer the

prayer that jesus taught in matthew 6

taught his disciples

that that really is an apostolic prayer

because the apostolic

role is to bring the reality of that

world into this one

and so that prayer is under

in my perspective is under the mandate

of apostolic

influence and so the the church prays it

prays the concepts in the prayer you

know your kingdom come your will be done

your kingdom king’s domain the reality

of your rule

the lordship of jesus let it become

manifest

in the in the specifics of everyday life

it may be in my health

it may be in my thinking it may be in

business it may be in family

but the point is is the reality of his

lordship

the reality of his rule as the

benevolent king that he is

becomes manifest realized and measurable

and that’s that’s the prayer and then

jesus of course taught the areas that

were important to pray for the provision

the whole issues of forgiveness and all

of that but it was all in the context of

transformation

that’s right well that’s such amazing

thought

so kind of getting down to the essence

of the gospel of the kingdom i’d like

you to just maybe take a few minutes and

unpack that for us like what is the

gospel of the kingdom

how do you know how do we see it

manifest in the life of jesus how do we

see it then carried on by the apostles

like what was actually being taught

there um

you know the nature of christ what he

did how he did it

and how he empowered us to continue his

ministry all those aspects give us some

thoughts

on that jesus

uh in in matthew 12 28 he said

if i cast a demon out of you by the

spirit of god

then the kingdom of god came upon you

yeah and so what he what he did there is

he described a condition

that got reversed and then he describes

how it happened

it’s because the reality of the kingdom

the present tense reality of god’s

dominion

came crashing into where the enemy once

ruled

that’s it it’s the conflict of kingdoms

and our role

is to give opportunity for the

extravagant one

which is the father to show up and do

what only he can do and that’s the heal

heal people’s bodies restore their minds

heal marriages

give set them on track to fulfill the

purpose of life whether it’s through

business or

education whatever it might be but the

whole point is is the kingdom of god is

very practical

and it has to be measurable we can’t

just pray

broad random prayers your kingdom come

and not be able to measure

because if if king if the kingdom comes

his lordship is realized and it’s going

to affect our relationship

it’s going to affect how we value each

other yes it’s going to affect the way i

treat my wife

my children my grandchildren it’s going

to affect the way i view

the course of history it’s going to

affect the way i look at infirmity

all those things are targets for his

sovereign rule

and he’s already told us what he wanted

he’s already said as it is in heaven so

that’s the mandate we live under but it

needs to be

it needs to be measurable you know where

you have that person

that’s been under torment matthew 12 28

a person that’s been

suffering under the torment of the enemy

that jesus comes along or

you come along in his name and pray for

him there’s freedom

and i just i just love the fact that

jesus described this is how it happened

darkness ruled light came darkness is

gone

and that’s the concept amen