Dr. Tony Evans is the founder and senior pastor of Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship in Dallas, founder and president of The Urban Alternative and author of over 100 books, booklets and Bible studies. The first African American to earn a doctorate of theology from Dallas Theological Seminary, he has been named one of the 12 Most Effective Preachers in the English-Speaking World by Baylor University. Dr. Evans holds the honor of writing and publishing the first full-Bible commentary and study Bible by an African American. His radio broadcast, The Alternative with Dr. Tony Evans, can be heard on over 1,400 radio outlets daily and in more than 130 countries. Dr. Evans’ sermons are also streamed and downloaded over 20,000,000 times annually.
[Music]
so that
this is this is the couch where we have
sat for our entire lives not always on
this couch but
but this is the proverbial couch we’ve
sat our whole lives in space that’s the
spirit yes
this is the spot where we have been able
to sit down with you
and and hear just wisdom wisdom which
we’re grateful for
we’re grateful that we’ve had this this
space to hear from our father our whole
lives but now
we have friends in here with us and uh i
i want to know just just how you’re
feeling in general
like you know tell me how you’re feeling
dad i always ask you on a scale of one
to ten how are you today
how am i today let’s see uh we’ve been
doing a lot today
so it’s going downhill fast but uh
but no we’re doing okay overall overall
it’s a lot going on
uh in in our world which means there’s a
lot going on in the ministry because you
got to
address people’s needs hurts desires
frustrations
irritations uh and concerns
in a way that touches them but also
helps them to make sense of what they’re
seeing all around us
you know i’m doing interviews you’re
doing interviews because people are
just trying to figure out this whole
chaos thing with the
with the racial issue not just the the
sickness stuff but the
the racial tension that we’re having
right now and you lived through that
so um what were some of the things that
you’re seeing now that kind of remind
you of what you actually live through
because people don’t really have a
perspective of it really being real
well in april 1968 of course
martin luther king was was killed and
that led to riots
and that included where i was born and
raised baltimore maryland
and i remember seeing the guard going up
and down the street as
uh right down the street from from our
home the home of
your grandparents uh was a lot of the
where the riding took place i can
picture now looking out my window and
seeing um
seeing people being told that the
quarantine basically
as we would say at the day quarantined
everybody was ordered
in their home so they could just have to
deal with people who are disobeying the
law
there’s a lot of fear mixed with anger
mixed with destruction mixed with
frustration
that here progress was being sought for
african americans that got interrupted
by
such an evil event and so there was a
confluence
of of things taking place but for a lot
of us
because i was raised in such a strong
christian environment
we had to try to learn how to mix
what we were seeing from a christian
perspective how would
how would christ look at
what was taking place and why it was
taking place
because i remember growing up with my
dad your granddad
he was showing me restaurants we
couldn’t go into because i was black and
segregation and and some of the ways
churches that would not
uh allow blacks in them like saying
don’t go there don’t go there
he was educating me which was enough of
a warning but it wasn’t
it was an an educational way
this is how it is it doesn’t please the
lord the lord’s got to take care of it
you know
and at the same time i remember when i
found out
i was over a friend’s house when the
news interrupted and said martin luther
king had been
assassinated and how it like the world
stopped
it’s like the world stopped because of
course
he was leading a movement and that
movement had engulfed the engulfed us
all
because of the hope that was generated
by the movement
uh the hope of a of a new environment of
a new america
of a new inclusion of desegregation of
of opportunity of uh and it was done in
a peaceful way by and large
so when you kill martin luther king and
he’s pushing for peace
well now there is no peace because the
peacemaker
had been uh had been assassinated so it
was a lot of confusion and trying to
make sense of it
trying to trying to keep your christian
witness and not ignore the reality
of what you were seeing and and i guess
i was helped a lot of that because
a lot of that movement was being led by
the church so there was a constant
pulling back to a faith narrative
even though it now had to be applied in
a very different kind of environment
so what you said a lot of the movement
was by the church
and so yeah martin luther king getting
killed and everybody you know obviously
he did try to do it in a peaceful way
and now there’s unrest there’s no peace
you know in the past there’s been
peaceful protest and like martin luther
king said
that rioting is the messaging of the
unheard in other words there’s such a
frustration
so the difference now maybe the church
isn’t leading or needs to be leading
the way that it was leading to show how
it really should be done
i mean what would you say as a pastor
um and as a father with families how can
we really lead now
so that it’s actually something that
gets done the right way
can i have something before you answer
that yeah like i want to
it’ll go into his question but it kind
of precedes it is how do you feel
now seeing stuff that reminds you of
50 years ago that that looks in a lot of
ways
like how does that feel have you been
there and here
it feels like we’ve come a long way
we’ve come a long way but we still have
a long way to go
um it shows that
you know because with the loss of martin
luther king he was reflective of great
progress
laws were changed voting rights and
opportunities were established
uh desegregation uh was taking place so
now
you could you could go to schools you
couldn’t go to
live in neighborhoods you could live
live in
my concern now is that
there is a complacency that’s set in
and the progress didn’t continue so that
now we find ourselves going backwards on
both sides of the fence
i don’t think um enough white christians
understand the uh uh the
the failure to deal with some of the
structures that still have gone
unaddressed
you know and that’s coming out by
concern about certain kind of policing
certain kinds of opportunities that are
still denied
equality of things like healthcare among
among african americans making it so
more susceptible
but at the same time there is a heavy
responsibility on african americans to
reach back one of the things i hope
that you do because of the benefits that
accrued to me
that then went to you was one establish
strong families
because much stronger back then was the
family the african-american family
and even though it was in a segregated
environment two parent families were the
norm
the father was at home by and large
and there was an emphasis on the
strength of the family
even in the midst of segregation not
only was that the case
but you had a community that reinforced
the family values
because the church was so influential so
they would pass down these values to
their
to their kids well with with media now
with the breakdown of the family you
don’t have the same transfer
that’s why family is so important and we
emphasize family so much
so with your family your kids your lives
make sure you’re investing in your
children
a god-centered value system but also
make them aware of their history and
their heritage
so they can appreciate where they’ve
come from they can appreciate what they
have
and they can not only be beneficiaries
of of all that god has given
but they can be servants to others so
that others get
what they may not have because you’ve
gotten what god has allowed you to get
that’s powerful i mean just thinking
about me transferring to my kids i just
realized
i don’t have kids yeah that’s okay you
have a lot of kids
they’re called nieces and nephews
there’s a whole lot of them but i just
you know as i remember when i started
driving
and you sitting me down and saying okay
so
if you get pulled over this is what you
need to do at the time
i didn’t realize that you were doing
that as a black man to a black man
i thought all parents you know put their
sit their kids down and say
make them do the whole okay dad i got it
you know
just going through that process as i got
older i realized oh that’s something
black families do
i didn’t realize you know that all
families didn’t do that when i talked to
my white brothers and sisters they’re
shocked
they’re like what are you kidding me so
now i’m having to get ready to have
those conversations with my sons
and my daughters but at a space where
you know
they’re actually you know coming into a
time where
they see it okay i didn’t see it growing
up i didn’t know why you were telling me
that
but these camera phones have made it to
where they’re already kind of afraid
you know as they get ready to go into
the world you know so how do i
how do i parent from that perspective
of not putting fear into them because
they already got enough that they’re
seeing
but really just getting them ready for
the way the world is
in the way they should operate in the
world well my father had a twofold
relationship
to me i was his son but i was also
a black man growing up in segregated
baltimore
and and i know what it is to be pulled
over
simply because i was told by the
policeman you’re in the wrong
neighborhood
why are you here and for no other reason
than that and that happened more than
once
and i know that that’s the kind of world
we are we are
living in now that’s not reflective of
all
all all policemen but it could happen
and i wanted you to be prepared as my
son because i don’t want anything
happened to my son
but also the high possibility
that it could happen to you because
you’re a black son
and the reality is that sometimes an
officer can be angry
sometimes they can be afraid you have to
be wise
because it’s always better
to live another day to be able to tell
your story
than to be in a situation that goes off
and you get hurt so i wanted to make
sure you went overboard
because when a policeman pulls you over
he has a number of things going forward
one
he has the suit he’s in blue so he is a
legitimate legal authority
he has a badge okay with that suit that
that reinforces that
he has the law on him side on his side
he has the right to pull you over
then he has a gun all you have is a
are you driving behind a wheel so given
all of that legitimate
reality i wanted my sons to go
overboard to show respect for the person
respect for the position and if
something was done that was
inappropriate
to just note that and bring it back to
me so that we could
address it properly and it not escalate
into something
that uh uh uh would be damaging
particularly damaging to you
so i wanted the bit there’s a biblical
principle is to respect those in
authority
so that is an authority position we
ought to respect it that doesn’t mean
that they will always do the best
in respecting you but we can always come
back to fight it legally legitimately
another day
if it doesn’t escalate so you be in the
de-escalating position
when you’re caught in that scenario
particularly when
you are right if you did wrong and were
speeding and
and were you know going down the wrong
way then you were wrong you deserve a
ticket and you don’t
you don’t justify wrong in the name of
color
but what you do not do is accept wrong
but you have to have a legitimate way to
make it right
what are steps that you are taking in
this moment
and i’m just curious as related to
dealing with
this whole issue that we’re facing and
dealing with
anti-racism and being proactive toward
that direction and also at the same time
preserving
relationships because our family a lot
of our ministry is just cross-cultural
that’s what we do
and and all that and then who are you
who are you
are you bringing in anybody to help you
with this whole moment what’s what’s
going on on all that
well i i look at everything as you know
spiritually and theologically first
everything visible and physical is
preceded by something invisible you’re a
theocrat
did you know that yeah yeah pretty much
oh i didn’t know about that pretty much
okay i i believe that the bible is the
inner word of god
and that god speaks on all these
subjects and that he has not stuttered
so
that’s where i’m gonna start what i
believe is happening in second
chronicles 15
which says when people left god there
was a divine disruption
and there was chaos but there was a
divine disruption in order to create
a divine reset so god will often like
somebody throwing up you know it’s
as a sickness and you vomit but you
generally feel better after you do it
because you got rid of the toxins well
there’s a toxin of racism
there’s a toxin of injustice but i also
understand
that many of my white brothers and
sisters don’t understand the sickness
where it came from why it’s there
uh the history of it how it’s
contemporary
and revealed in such a contemporary
fashion how i’ve experienced it not just
as a
young man growing up but now as a grown
man
today i still have to face it in
different ways
you know i know what it is to be
rejected in churches
as an adult rejected in schools as an
adult
are rejected in the media as an adult
because of the color of my skin
but at the same time i’ve got to be a
repairer of the breach
i cannot walk around as an angry man
and still expect god to use me
to heal the wounds that are there
i’ve got to i’ve got to be a peace maker
god commands that of me so then i ought
to do everything i can to build
relationships
to help educate to be forgiving you know
they say no justice no peace but also
no forgiveness no peace and where there
is repentance
then i’m obligated to forgive and let’s
move together to correct
and let’s build something new on the
same space and not allow
the sin of racism to become the sin of
unforgiveness
he said walking around like an angry man
i i
i at some level i’m a firm believer
in righteous anger i believe in it
i believe in so when you say walking
around an angry man you’re saying
walking around an angry man that’s using
that anger and it’s becoming sinful
because of the anger or
walking around with a righteous
indignation indignation about
what’s that’s okay right the bible says
in um ephesians 4
be angry but sin not right so we should
be angry over unrighteousness
but we shouldn’t use righteous
indignation which is a good good phrase
you probably learned that from me
you should you should you shouldn’t use
righteous indignation
as an excuse for you to do the wrong
that you’re condemning right because now
you become the bible says do not take
vengeance in your own hands because then
you’ve removed
god from handling it for you and he’ll
handle it better so you can address it
but what you cannot do is return evil
for evil
and unfortunately sometimes in anger
that can happen
and that is an unrighteous response to a
legitimate
uh problem that needs to be corrected my
hope for both of you
is that you raise strong families
who love god who love each other
and who do good in the world in which
they live
we are we ought to be known for the good
we contribute
it can’t just be about you know many
people sacrificed
for me to be able to do what i do
and to become what god has allowed me to
become
and that has included included blacks
and whites of course it started with my
father
but uh but but that that has included
many people whose hearts were right
and they invested in me
and god used them to help move me along
so i hopefully have invested in you
so that you can maximize your potential
under god for the good of your family
and for the good of others
and my hope is that you will train the
next generation
to love god to love their family and to
be
model citizens who make this world
a better place to live
you